Understanding ISO 45001: Consultation and Participation

Summary

This conversation delves into the requirements of ISO 45001, focusing on the importance of consultation and participation in health and safety management. Martin Graham explains the definitions of consultation and participation, the legal requirements surrounding them, and the significance of involving workers in decision-making processes. The discussion highlights the barriers to effective consultation, the role of leadership in fostering a safety culture, and practical tips for improving worker participation. Ultimately, the conversation emphasises the need for open communication and the importance of listening to workers' feedback to enhance safety practices within organisations.

Takeaways

ISO 45001 emphasises the need for consultation and participation.

Consultation involves seeking workers' views, while participation involves decision-making.

Involving workers can lead to better health and safety outcomes.

Legal requirements exist for worker participation in health and safety.

Barriers to effective consultation include fear of reprisals and lack of communication.

Leadership plays a crucial role in fostering a positive safety culture.

Simple mechanisms like suggestion boxes can improve participation.

Feedback from workers should be acknowledged and acted upon.

Consultation and participation are distinct but interconnected processes.

Creating an open environment encourages workers to voice their concerns.

Chapters

00:00 Understanding ISO 45001: Consultation and Participation

04:00 Legal Requirements and Cultural Impact

07:36 Engaging All Workers: Beyond Employees

10:23 Mechanisms for Effective Consultation

15:12 Common Pitfalls in Consultation Practices

16:54 Navigating Workplace Personalities

17:20 Overcoming Barriers to Safety Engagement

18:07 Creating a Culture of Open Communication

19:59 The Importance of Participation in Safety

22:01 Integrating Safety Standards Across the Organisation

23:37 Leadership's Role in Safety Culture

25:21 Building Trust Through Engagement

28:03 Defining Consultation vs. Participation

28:59 Simple Steps to Enhance Participation

Key Links

Auva Website: www.auva.com

Apple Podcast:  https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/by-all-standards/id1771677594

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/79OUNj3vY9dmESR3okwHJa?si=871837f56dc149b6

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@auvacertification/podcasts

LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/company/auva-certification-ltd 

Instagram: @auvacert

Michael Venner:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelvenner-isocertificationexpert/ 

Martin Graham:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-graham-657251173/

Chapters

• 0:00 Understanding ISO 45001: Consultation and Participation
• 4:00 Legal Requirements and Cultural Impact
• 7:36 Engaging All Workers: Beyond Employees
• 10:23 Mechanisms for Effective Consultation
• 15:12 Common Pitfalls in Consultation Practices
• 16:54 Navigating Workplace Personalities
• 17:20 Overcoming Barriers to Safety Engagement
• 18:07 Creating a Culture of Open Communication
• 19:59 The Importance of Participation in Safety
• 22:01 Integrating Safety Standards Across the Organisation
• 23:37 Leadership's Role in Safety Culture
• 25:21 Building Trust Through Engagement
• 28:03 Defining Consultation vs. Participation
• 28:59 Simple Steps to Enhance Participation

Transcript

0:00

ISO 45001 isn't just about policies and risk assessments. It's about people. And most companies miss the part that matters most. Consultation and participation. And Martin Graham, our COO, will explain why this is a critical but often undervalued topic. Okay Martin, so what does ISO 45001 actually require when it comes to consultation and participation? I think probably the best place to start is maybe the definitions of consultation and participation because they can get misunderstood and it's maybe not all that clear to some people. The definitions are actually in the standards as the terms and definitions in the front of the standard. just for the avoidance of any doubt, you've got consultation which is seeking views of workers and participation which is involvement of workers in decision making. kind of two key elements there. think that's kind of really keeping the clause as simple as it can be, you so basically get people involved, get their opinions on things, get their input to the process and then involve them in the decision making process as well when it comes to health and safety matters and the management system overall. And yes, one of the key fundamental elements of it. wonder why it's only in 45,001 because when you put it like that it kind of... why is that not in everything? Like all the other standards! you won't believe this and I'm not just saying this, I having the exact conversations today. It was a small company and they had 9001, 14001, 45001 and I said it wouldn't be a bad idea because they were talking about communication and like how you do it and we're talking management reviews and that kind of thing and they said, the client actually said it would be a bad idea to have kind of something similar across the board and I said well, yeah, you're right, it wouldn't be a bad idea at all because the other standards talk about communication. Obviously, know. ISO 45001 is explicit around participation and consultation explicitly. So yeah, it wouldn't be a bad idea though. But yeah. the other standard is it's more of a one-way street isn't it but the ISO 45001 makes it a bit of a two-way street in that sense doesn't it. exactly right. And I think that's one of the things that people have certainly found when I've been auditing, you get to the console, this clause consultation and participation and you asked the question, how do you go about that? And typically you get kind of a response such as, you know, we do toolbox talks or, know, we give people this information and so on and so forth, which is obviously good stuff, you know, which is valid and relevant in terms of communication. But it's kind of really kind of just pushing information kind of one way. Whereas the whole intent of the clause and when you read the spirit and the intent of it, it's about getting that interaction and feedback from workers, I guess. I guess that's a number of reasons really. One, because the standard asks for it. Two, because you're actually legally required to do it. There's legislation around participation of workers. But also as well, you find that if people have been involved in a process in terms of, know, establishing it and what's required of them, they can tend to maybe be a bit more, what's the word? eager to participate or a less resistance to it, you know, when they've actually been, you know, involved in it. Yeah, that yeah, if they've been involved in saying, okay, well, this is a problem. And if they've been involved in the solution making, or, you know, at least the perceived solution, then, okay, we it's difficult to argue against it, if you've kind of come been part of the solution or the decision making process. But yeah, it's not. Yes. We put it out there as well. And that's the thing, I guess, that it kind of comes back to across the whole standard, know, kind of the more people you have involved in things and it's not about making everything a committee decision, but it's about collectively, you see people sometimes like sorts of individuals who are trying to manage and operate a system, they're not sure what's come up with or what to do. And you say, if you thought about asking others, you know, because they might have the solution there and then, you know, and it's the more you don't want to make everything a committee decision process, but certainly more people are involved. can sometimes you've got people who are particularly when comes to health and safety. you find some people who are really kind of keen and got some good ideas and what but you know, haven't necessarily got the forum to do it. And that's the that's that's the other thing I've discovered. So yeah, that's all we invited someone so to get involved and they come up with this brilliant idea and you think, well, there you go. The knowledge is in the organisation all the time, but it's how it's it's the form for extracting it out that you tend to find is missing. yeah. So you said there is a legal requirement for it. So is that the main driver? I know it's written in the standard, there's a legal requirement for consultation participation, is there? m requirement is more around participation of workers, so kind of get them involved in the decision making. whereas obviously, it's linked together, because you argue, well, to be involved in the decision making, you've got to get someone's view and opinion. it's where is the standard, obviously, expanded out a bit more and uses those two particular words. yeah, it's yeah, so it's just hugely important, you know, because particularly when comes to health and safety, it's about. culture and attitudes and those kinds of things. And when you're trying to change that within an organisation or, know, kind of understand that and improve it that within an organisation, you can only redo that with people's kind of involvement and support. If otherwise it becomes a, be, it could be hard to change a culture with just one person driving it. Cause otherwise you're seen as that person saying, flip side there they are again, you know, kind of, know, giving, telling us all what to do or health and safety. And it gets that kind of negative. It becomes a bit adversarial rather than trying to, you know, make it, make it. So is it just for employees or is it anyone that so maybe contractors that you're dealing with is that what it involves it should be everyone? Yeah, well the standards ISO 45001 calls, it doesn't actually use the term employees, it uses these throughout the term worker. So that's kind of any person or persons providing a service for and to on behalf of the organisation. that can be, yeah, direct employees like PAYE but also I guess like, you know, some contractors, agency workers, whatever it may be, obviously. I guess when it comes to contractors and outsourcing, you need to be a little bit careful, but it's because there may be some obviously information there. But the idea is that if someone's working for you within the organisation or for the organisation, you're kind of that that forum is there, that information is available. And I think the other key thing as well, the standards explicit, it talks about non managerial workers involved in the process. obviously, that's the key thing, because sometimes I see the process, oh, talk about, oh, we've got a committee in place, oh, who sits on it, oh. the health and safety manager, the director, the this and that and the other. it's obviously good, know, fantastic that that's happening. But the standard is explicit around, you know, non-managerial work has been involved in certain parts of the process. So, yeah. Yeah, because otherwise it doesn't really change anything really. You only know what you know and you're not the hands-on people I suppose. Well, what about if they use the like a supervisor or a foreman or kind of a lead-ish manager that's passing on the information? Is that acceptable? Yeah, I mean, the standard talks about, again, you kind of you've got establishing, implementing, maintaining a process for consultation on participation. And also it says, and where they exist, workers representatives. So the idea is that if there is a representative like health and safety representative for argument's sake, that needs to be that form needs to be open to them as well, you know, because it could be that that that you might not necessarily want every worker coming along. You've got to make it available. you know, you might say, okay, well, our worker representative is going to, you know, feed that information back or backwards or forwards within the process, you know. So I think the idea is the standard has been quite realistic because you could have an organisation that's got, you like 5,000 employees and you can't have everyone descending on a big town hall meeting, it becomes like chaos. But the idea is that there's a, there's a mechanism there for people to be able to, you know, I think express their views, you know, kind of feel their voice is being heard and, know, that information is being considered. part of the planning process, know, they think that's kind of what's important and yeah that's the key thing with it. Okay so it's quite different from traditional top-down safety management isn't it, where it just flows down. It's definitely trying to emphasize that two-way, two-way street. Yeah, I think that's the thing because you know, you've got within an organisation, you've got an awful amount of knowledge and people doing doing jobs because I you've got to remember, it's a lot of places work is being done outside of you know, maybe a head office, you know, say if you've got like a construction site or something, you know, there may be things happening out there that just aren't visual to people that are arguably maybe setting policy or making decisions. So we'll okay, how are we going to implement or decide an effective policy if we don't know what's happening out in the in the real world, they will say, you so that's the thing. So I think the other thing to remember as well, the standards kind of quite explicit, it talks about it actually splits it between the requirements for consultation and separately participation. for example, consultation is about kind of involving people in determining it involves them in determining the needs and expectations of interested parties, establishing the policy. So that's from a consultation perspective. So. getting people involved. then when it comes to participation, it's kind of even talks about, you know, it talks about identifying hazards, determining any actions to eliminate those hazards and so on. So it's really quite kind of explicit. It's all there in black and white, you know, for people to see, but it's em kind of two distinct things then, are they? It's not as one, consultation and participation is two separate kind of activities. That's right. Yeah. So when you, when you, when you read into what the standard is asking for, it talks about consultation and there's an explicit set of, you know, half a dozen, actually nine different requirements that the standard talks about. And then a further seven when it comes to participation. So it's kind of, it's quite explicit in what it talks about. So I think, yeah, so in terms of mechanizing that it's, you know, people do in different ways, you know, like I think if you've got a small organisation, so one of us at just today, a dozen people. you and they can have like, you know, sort of catch ups over lunch and it's quite an open forum, you know, but obviously that's not always, you know, practical for some other organisations. But yeah, it's just important that it's, think the non managerial bit is the key thing, you know, and it's just, yeah. And it's the standard talks about when you're doing it, there's particular things that it says that the organisation needs to do. And it says about providing mechanisms. time training and resources. it's, I think the idea is that they just, you remove barriers to people being able to voice their concerns or opinions or, that kind of thing. So yeah, you can't just say, well, you know, we're, everyone's flat out busy. There's no time. Well, that's not an excuse. know, it's, it's, it's got, it's got to be there. You know, it's, yeah, it's. so toolbox talks and safety briefings, obviously are a lot in construction, but other companies do use them. I was a manufacturing company and they use toolbox talks. Do they count as consultation? Is that permitted? I think it can do. think, like I say, if you think about the definition of consultation, kind of seeking people's views. So I think as long as that form, if you can use maybe a toolbox talk or whatever it may be as a form for basing participation, as long as that form allows for people to be able to feedback, like you say, it's not just that one way, I'll do this, do this, do this. It needs to be that mechanism for providing information back. And also as well, the other important thing, which sometimes gets lost is yeah. yes saying okay we've got this concern we've got this concern yeah okay okay unfortunately there's nothing we can't do anything about even if people are told okay we've considered it but we can't do anything at this moment in time the fact that it just goes into into the ether and disappears that can be frustrating for workers you know certainly which disappears and nothing happens with it so yeah so suppose safety bulletins are a little bit one way because you're just putting information out where toolbox talks you're kind of interacting with the people aren't you so there can be that flow eh long as it provides that, like I say, as long as it provides that mechanism, time and resources and there can be other things factor into it as well, know, clients we go into just recently and because one of the obstacles that the standard talks about is, you know, it talks about one of the obstacles. The actual standard says, determine and remove obstacles or barriers to participation and minimize those that cannot be removed. And it says obstacles. can be include, funny enough, failure to respond to worker inputs or suggestions, language or literacy barriers, because it just may be that some people just don't feel kind of able to participate. that kind of thing can feel a little bit restricting. If someone says, I'd like to be part of that, but I feel that I might not be able to because I can't get my point across or something like that. Well, OK, is there another way of approaching it then? Is it just simple as, suggestions or anonymous emails and all that kind of thing. I see people using an awful lot of apps and things nowadays where they can report things just anonymously and it gets into the system and just whatever works. You can use technology to your advantage. Because I think everyone's sometimes not that confident in putting their hand up in a room full of people. Think it might have a brilliant idea, but not necessarily feel confident enough to suggest it because they can't maybe get their point across. a room with their peers, so to speak. Yeah I went to a client not too long ago actually, I think you're going to join me next year, they've got QR codes around all their sites and anyone can scan the QR code and it opens up a form and it's anonymous and they can basically write anything they want, submit it and then it goes off to their Sheik manager and he reviews them but yeah was anonymous but I thought that was quite a good... because obviously they're using contractors on site as well and yeah it could be it was open to anyone yeah so it's kind of good sometimes because people use like they have like maybe health and safety committees and those kinds of things. And sometimes it's a client the other day and I just said, know, I know within our industry, Mike, we have kind of like within certain committees that we have not health and safety, but we have like terms of reference for like people that participate in things. And I said, and I said, Yeah. what is the actual committee responsible for? Like, and what do they do? Cause you might have someone that's in there thinking, I'd like to sit on that. I'll be part of it. But I don't really know how much time it's going to take, you know, kind of what's involved, what's expected of me, but you know, there might get some, it might be a way of kind of opening that door, know, but yeah. that fear of what is it exactly where that can break that barrier down. Yeah, that's a point. oh what someone might be sitting and thinking, yeah, you know, I really want to get involved, but I don't want stand up and do a big presentation. They might be, no, you don't have to do that. It can be whatever form it takes. And I think that's the idea. You reduce those barriers, make the process approachable, you know, kind of put friendly faces in there, you know, whatever. I think the other thing as well with that kind of thing, it's You might find, I don't know, maybe a whatever sector, but say you move construction, they might have a really good working relationship with like their site manager or something like that and say, okay, well, okay, you don't need to go directly to your manager to do it. You could just talk to that person and say, well, okay, as long as the information gets through, it doesn't really matter how it's how it's achieved, you know, because there's different, you know, different levels of people might feel comfortable talking to someone more than, you know, one of their other colleagues and they would someone else, you know, but it's all down to I guess, recognizing that and how you're going to make it work. So yeah. Yeah. some of the ways companies, I'll say unintentionally fake consultation is they think they're doing the right thing and it's not actually right. There's some... I think maybe, probably it's kind of, I think maybe the biggest thing is, maybe we've already kind of touched on there, it's kind of just pushing information out rather than, oh, here's our information, here's our information, oh, we put that on a notice board, oh, we send that via an email, know, but you know, kind of we, know, we, whatever it may be, we send out a safety bulletin, which is all good communication. It's not that it's necessarily bad or ineffective, but I think the key. part of the process here was getting that information kind of coming back and getting people involved in that. think, like say, those two things, their views and the decision making process. it's, think that's maybe the, like I say, the biggest misunderstanding is kind of, it's just, we've given everyone information, but, you can't, know, so as to be fair to some, a lot of people, they say, we tell people, but no one really wants to take part, you know, you say, well, okay, but you can't say, can't. You can take the horse to the water, but you can't make it drink, you know, say, but that's all we can do as long as you're seen to be able to sort of make time information and resources available. You can't, you know, you can't do much more than that, you know. So, um, so if ever the, if ever the question arises from, you know, an interested party, okay, how did you try and do this? Well, this is what we try to do, you know, and it's, um, yeah. So I think it's not, think the key. Yeah, certainly. Yeah, that, that's it. It's just that kind of, well, this is, this is the thought, this is the time we make available. We give people information, training on this, saying, OK, this is just a means of doing it. But it's not easy, because sometimes you do get people, if I say, very keen to express their views. But it's just nature, I guess. And I suppose the trick to this is just making it as approachable and as effective for everyone as you possibly can. But yeah, not easy. Not easy when you're dealing with personalities and interests. people trying to do their jobs and get home. which is fair enough, but at least you've shown to be trying to achieve it. That's all you can really do. how can organisations move from telling people about safety to involve with them in that sense? Some people are just going to be willing, some aren't. Is there something people can do to try and encourage, change that mindset? I think maybe one of the fears when it comes to these kinds of things is is there a consequence or a reprisal if I've said something or is that going to lead to good or bad? When I say bad, mean they've seen some bad behaviour or something or a hazardous work practice and they think, don't want to get anyone in trouble. But the whole in actual fact, it's a requirement in the clause that it says that, you know, one of the barriers can be fear of revisals or consequence. You you've got to kind of say, well, OK, whatever you do, it doesn't matter because, you know, even if it's it's not about kind of blaming or, you know, of point of the finger, it's about, making a safer and healthier work environment. So I think it's I think, just kind of maybe that can be a particular barrier if you like, you know, so make it maybe make it more attractive to. Make it clear, I think that's one, that your voice is going to be heard, two, that when the voice is heard, it's not going to be any, for want of a better word, negative consequence to reprisals. You can say, don't worry, you can suggest it, you can do it anonymously, whatever people feel comfortable with. It shouldn't be a fear of reprisal about the process, not. So that's kind of one of the... come forward at the end of the day. If they see something, they spot something, see if something could be improved. They come forward, you know, it's quite important because I know most business, no business leader wants to end up in prison, do they? Well, no, that's it. absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah, so you take away and even it can build into other parts of the standard as well. You know, he talks about the standard was obviously got around risk and opportunity, not health and safety risk, but, you know, obviously system and process risk. So the idea is that, you know, if there's a risk to people not understanding or having a you might find someone that's, you know, got a colleague who, you know, doesn't necessarily as it's not absorbed or it has understood what said to them and it might be because maybe they. they understand or read things or learn things in a different way. So it might be okay. That's got to get fed back, know, because not understanding something is a risk to the system, isn't it? If people aren't sure what to do and how to do it, well, okay, people have got to understand. uh I mean especially if you've got people that ing, where ing obviously in our case English isn't the first language that that could be a barrier can't it and people might be fearful of well not going to understand this so you've got to try and somehow you know pictures you know pictures tell a thousand words Yeah. Yeah. And particularly, obviously, when you look into the clause, it talks about hazards, identification, actions to address them and so on. It talks about determining what needs to be communicated. And also, as well, another key thing to remember within the clause, talks about participation. involvement in decision-making when it comes to investigating incidents and non-performing non-performances that kind of thing. So a key thing, know, so obviously you can't have an entire organisation investigated an incident, but certainly, you know, the opportunity needs to be there that, you know, if there's an incident or an accident and someone's been hurt, you know, obviously it needs to be investigated properly. It may be that someone's seen something, we'll make sure the right people are involved in that, in the investigation process, because you don't just want to have someone, you know, health and safety manager. I'm Fred, I'm from head office, I'm here to help, yeah. That's it. that's it. Yeah, I'm kind of like, I'm going to investigate this. Don't worry. Everything's under control. Well, why not speak to the people that are actually involved, you know, and obviously, you know, and say, well, okay, what happened? How can we do this better? What's, what's, what's the steps we need to take? Cause it might be that, you know, they were doing, they're following the procedure, but the procedure or the arrangements or whatever it may be, or the method statement, whatever system of work. And it may just be that that's just not not suitable and sufficient, you know, say, how do we, how do we learn from this? I think that's the key thing. It's, you know, how does it leads to, you know, support and improvement of the management system, you know, achievement of objectives. And there's so many parts of the standard that it can, that it can lead into. It's not just about, you know, consultation and participation. It's like all claws in the standards, certainly 45, but all the others as well. don't stand, they don't stand in isolation or certainly they shouldn't do, you know, they should be kind of, how does it all, how does it all link and correlate backwards and forwards? In actual fact, when you. which I'm sure everyone will now when you read the clause in the standard, when you look at the sub clauses actually calls out to other parts like objectives, leadership, participation, sorry, communication and accident investigation, non-conformities and so on. So it's really, really important that, you know, those kind of people look at not just the line in the standard, but also kind of the clause that it relates to and that can think, oh yeah, okay. And then it becomes a system rather than just something that we do rather than the standalone. Yeah. So, which is obviously critical. requirement than what people may think and what you may first look at isn't it? It's small but it has big impacts and like you say it spreads over many clauses. Yeah, because like you say, if you've got people involved in the process, that can lead to, you know, it may be that you might consult with your workers and they might come up with a fantastic health and safety objectives. You know, you might be sitting there as an organisation thinking, what do we want to do? How can we improve? It might be someone sitting there with an objective that can push into that, or it might need some training or it might need a better means of communication or it might need to, you know, a better operational control or a means of responding in an emergency. There's so many things that it can factor in and I think yeah, it can be difficult to, kind of, you don't want to, like we said before, you don't want to make everything a committee making decisions, but certainly people need to be involved and yeah, because it can be more effective. it's important that frontline workers, the boots on the ground, the people at the cold face of it, are kind of involved in that hazard identification and risk area. Because when you think like a policy, a policy set by, know, and signed, set by leadership and signed by leadership and management within an organisation. Well, the only way you're really going to achieve that is by having everyone, you know, have the culture there that supports it and engages with it. And by doing that, it's all part of this, you know, getting communication, certainly. But I think that's why it's a separate clause. know, you've got communication. Yes, there needs to be that those mechanisms, but consultation and participation is a I don't know. use it under caution. It's not a standalone clause certainly, but it's an explicit clause. It's got some explicit things in there that asks you to do as an organisation. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. participation improve safety culture or reduce incidents? Good question. I would have to say kind of I couldn't give an explicit example, but I would say that kind of I think people have seen it as certainly a positive thing in terms of it's kind of people that were I think they just see it as a means of just supporting that, you know, kind of what they're trying to achieve. That's the main thing. And ultimately that does include, you know, reducing the health and safety. risks and hazards and so on. yeah, I'm trying to think of an example, but yeah, it's, I can't think of one off the top of head, but certainly, think it, you know, people see it as a positive thing, you know, kind of getting people involved. Yeah. seen something that sort changed the question slightly where someone's just done a fantastic job of it and you thought that's a good, they've really embraced it, that's a really good system that they've created there, there's a lot of participation and you know sort of consultation. I think with a lot of the clauses, it's driven by the whole top management side, the leadership side of it. think you kind of, if they seem to be sort of engaged with and kind of supporting the process, some of the best times you see these systems working well is when you see people going down like leadership tours, know, leadership kind of going down onto the short floor and engaging directly, you know, that's always seen as a positive thing. because people thought, here they come. I guess it's kind of personality as well, how those things people approach it. always, I've seen that be a point as well, where leadership, management, you like, go actually down onto the short floor, out to sites and engage and see that, what do you think? What do you think? How do you feel? it's not bits of paper coming, there's a visual presence of the leadership team actually. They wrote all this stuff on the paper but we never see them. It means nothing, whereas if they're actually down there and not necessarily getting dirty but meeting people face to face and talking to them, that's a better... process and likely to get more sort of forthcoming participation and things like that. that's it. That's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like exactly what you say there. It's not just, this is something else they want us to do. Yes, obviously there has to be that distinction and because that's the way that companies are structured. ultimately, if it's kind of, yeah, if you go to someone saying, we're thinking of doing this. What do you think? You know, some people might be intimidated by that, you know, kind of want to want to, you know, if there's a director or whatever, maybe an MD coming into place. But again, it comes back to how that how that. team is perceived within the organisation. That's a cultural thing. You know, it should be people, you know, you can't be all kind of, know, there needs to be structure and hierarchy. Of course there does, but you know, I think it needs to be seen to be, you know, an approachable, non adversarial kind of like management and leadership, you know, that, okay, you can, you can do this, you know, it's not a problem. The door's open, you know, don't, don't come and, know, press them every hour of your day, because obviously there's structure within an organisation for a reason, you know, but ultimately people need to be seen to be approachable. And, and I think as well, Mike, it's the... what comes with it, is how this works, how that information is dealt with and processed and then the last time I on here, I come around and they ask a question, and I blow the notes, but nothing really changes. And I realize it's obviously, I guess, passing time and the questions are made into answers. know, even if it's like, yeah, I think even in that case, you at least feed back to them that say, look, great idea, we just can't afford it at the moment, so what we're going to do is this, you know, I think it's that at least telling them that, you know, we've heard you, but we just can't do it right now. I think that's the bit, isn't it? the thing is, the voice has been heard and it's okay. There's something, there is someone or something listening to, know, kind of what you're saying, but it's okay. And it's, but we can't necessarily do this, but how about this? Or, you know, looking at a work around or whatever it may be, you know, just, yeah, just getting people involved, you know, kind of, know, cause like I said, those people might come up with a good solution. They might come up with a. a good problem that maybe hasn't been considered or they might come another way of thinking, you know, and it's, it's very much at the standard, like most clauses, it's not explicit on how you do this, you know, it's up to the organisation, the size and shape, you know, what works well with one may not necessarily work well with another, you know, because, you know, there's not, not, you're dealing with personalities ultimately, which is always, always challenging, always challenging, yeah. Yeah, and that's it. Yeah. of the key thing for people is try and break down that barrier. Try and let people know that this is what we're trying to do, we want to improve it. So that's really what managers need to do when they get out there to just try and break that barrier down and encourage people to step forward. I think so, yeah. And I think it's just remember those kind of, those key definitions, know, consultation and participation. It's come some as they can be seen as interpreted as maybe being the same thing, but they're quite, they're quite separate and distinct, not only in terms of definition, but also in terms of what the standard actually asks of those two, those two kind of two activities, if you like. So yeah, and particularly so non managerial consultation participation. when you read into that, like I say, does. It's half a dozen, nine points on one and seven on the other that says, okay, they need to be involved in this process. Yeah. So, yeah, so non-managerial workers, all workers, you know, so yeah, anyone be that temporary or just there for the day. You know, obviously you've got to take these, be sensible, but yeah, it's, yeah. Yeah. Sure. thing that businesses could do to improve it? One tip that straight away I can do it tomorrow just to improve the whole consultation participation process. I think maybe, think, you know, you know what an easy question would be literally, just ask your workers to do, how should we do this? What do you think? do you literally, I know that's probably like, you could actually kind of by definition, then you are, you're meeting the requirements. Just say, look, what would work for you? What would work for you? Yeah, what do you? Yeah. Yeah. So look. would this work for you to get you to come and join it? That's a idea. we've got to do this. We've got to do this because otherwise if we don't do this, we're not going to be in compliance with the standard. So we've got to do it. So, okay, so what would be best? And you might get everyone, you might get everyone show of hands or whatever it may be. Everyone says, yeah, I want a committee that gets held once a quarter. Yeah, brilliant. We've been aching for that, you know, but it might be actually, you know, that won't work or we want to get, we want more one-on-ones or prefer this. think just literally by asking that one question you are. you are consulting, know, you're literally kind of, it's just what works for you. think more than, rather than like health and safety manager sitting there and trying to think of, how am going to do this? You know, we'll go and ask the people, know, how am I going to solve this problem? Well, go and ask somebody. And it's, it's not so many things that I'm sure even from a quality and environmental perspective, you know, I'm struggling to come up with some objectives. Well, what do you think? What could, how could we be better? You know, how could we make people safer? How could we keep make people? What do you want? You know, do we. Do you want a mental health first aid? Do you want a committee? Do you want this? And obviously, I guess it comes back to like we're saying, it has it's down to time and cost and everything that goes with it. But you can't sort of say, we've got no time because that's not really what it's all about. You know, needs to time needs to be made available. So, yeah, yeah. That's like the simplest tip ever, just going on someone. It's true, it's very true. go and ask him. but I think he's having said all that is obviously I realized they particularly at the moment there's an awful lot of challenges going on with their Businesses and financials and that probably the last thing people need is time being taken out of a workday But you know, doesn't need to be like a big, know kind of hour-long meeting It could be literally just just little mechanisms that you know quite sort of you know Kind of easy sir to implement and take forward, you know, just start with something simple, you know a suggestion box, know, maybe, know, but so yeah, should not everyone's got on that's a silly thing. But you know, it doesn't need to be cheap and sometimes effective, you know, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. a paper, write something on there, put it in a box, anonymous and yeah. eh how are you approaching this? yeah, it's, yeah, it can be difficult. I fully appreciate, you know, it's, it's not necessarily easy, but yeah, it's, it doesn't have to be difficult. But yeah. That's good. think it's been useful people. Some tips, simple things. Broke it down, made it pretty simple. So, yeah, good. of obviously, yeah, trying to just give like a bit more kind of openness what we look, mean, the standards not secret. It's not, you know, not said anything that's, you know, some hidden art, you know, that's great. We know about that. It's all there, you know, but it's, yeah, it's just I think, yeah, ask the question and also kind of I'm sure people do, but yeah, just read the standard and kind of, you know, see how it interacts with other parts of the standard certainly. Sure. Not at all pleasure as always. that's been good, brilliant Thanks for watching, catch you soon! Cheers, bye Bye bye.