The Secret Behind Powerful Management Reviews

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Summary

In this conversation, Michael Venner and Martin Graham discuss the importance of effective management reviews, emphasising that they should be a continuous process rather than a one-off meeting. They explore the purpose of management reviews, the typical practices observed, and how organisations can better evidence their review processes. The discussion also highlights the role of technology in facilitating reviews and the need for organisations to engage employees in the review process. Ultimately, the conversation encourages businesses to challenge the status quo and think creatively about how they conduct management reviews to ensure they are genuinely beneficial.

Takeaways

• The secret to powerful reviews is to review your system continuously.
• Management reviews should not just be a meeting but an ongoing process.
• Outputs of management reviews are more important than just minutes.
• Engaging employees in the review process enhances effectiveness.
• Technology can aid in capturing and evidencing management reviews.
• Don't treat management reviews as a tick-box exercise for auditors.
• Use existing meetings to inform and enhance management reviews.
• Challenge the traditional approach to management reviews.
• The purpose of management reviews is to drive decisions and actions.
• Effective management reviews can significantly impact organisational performance.

Chapters

00:00 The Essence of Effective Management Reviews

02:33 Understanding the Purpose of Management Reviews

05:54 Typical Management Review Practices

10:43 Evidencing Management Reviews

15:39 Engaging Employees in the Review Process

20:31 Challenging the Status Quo in Management Reviews

25:58 The Role of Technology in Management Reviews

Key Links

Auva Website: www.auva.com

Apple Podcast:  https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/by-all-standards/id1771677594

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/79OUNj3vY9dmESR3okwHJa?si=871837f56dc149b6

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@auvacertification/podcasts

LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/company/auva-certification-ltd 

Instagram: @auvacert

Michael Venner:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelvenner-isocertificationexpert/ 

Martin Graham:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-graham-657251173/

Chapters

• 0:00 The Essence of Effective Management Reviews
• 2:33 Understanding the Purpose of Management Reviews
• 5:54 Typical Management Review Practices
• 10:43 Evidencing Management Reviews
• 15:39 Engaging Employees in the Review Process
• 20:31 Challenging the Status Quo in Management Reviews
• 25:58 The Role of Technology in Management Reviews

Transcript

0:00

If your management reviews feel like a waste of time, they probably are. What if I told you most teams are doing them completely wrong and it's costing them decisions, direction and executive buy in OK, Martin, so what is the secret behind powerful reviews? Okay, well I think maybe the obvious, that sounds like a strange thing to say, but I guess the secret really is to actually review your system rather than actually hold a, which is what most people do, a sit down and have a meeting. think the people who read the manager review clauses sit down and have a meeting rather than actually review your system. I think that's kind of one of the biggest areas that gets missed or maybe. misinterpreted. I think that's probably one of the biggest things, Mike, that we've kind of noticed over the years of doing this. Yeah, because I think obviously when I go and do audits, have basically when we go to the management review section, everyone just presents a load of minutes to me. That's basically what it is, isn't it? And there we go. We've done our management review. OK. That's it. it's I think as well, it's kind of, and they vary, you know, I've been presented with like one page kind of just like literally like kind of yes, no through to kind of quite detailed kind of, you know, sort of transcripts, if you like the multiple pages. But I think that, yeah, like I said, the secret in it, if you like, is that that word of review. And it's not just a case of sit down and have a management review once a year before the audit or, know, after your internal audit or whatever it may be. It's it can be considered as part of a continual kind of process really. And one of the things I say to clients when we go into is say, don't feel like you could just present me with a meeting that you've had. And I often say to them, what do you do throughout the year? What meetings do you have? What points do you interact with your workers, the management team and so on. And get them to kind of tell me and then sort of interpret it that way. So look at what's already happening rather than just. know, producing a set of minutes that kind of answers, answers a set of inputs or agenda items, you know, so yes, very common though, just to get a, like you say, set of minutes, which isn't necessarily wrong, but maybe not the best way of kind of reviewing your system, you know, it can be a, I guess a sit down meeting can be a good kind of means of, you know, a forum for consolidating ideas and actions and those kinds of things. But the idea of reviewing your system, I think should be. could be considered made more of a continual kind of thing that the organisation does as part of its day-to-day system operation, definitely. do we have to do it? What's the purpose of management reviews? Not just because what the standard says, what's the actual purpose of it? think, I think that's kind of a thing. People say, I've to do that rather than actually thinking, actually, why do I need to do it? And it's when you look at, I mean, when you look at kind of what it's asking for, it's fundamentally about like the adequacy and effectiveness of the system, the suitability, adequacy and effectiveness of your system, those kind of three words, you know, kind of, you know, suitable, you know. fit for purpose, adequate achieving what it needs to achieve and effective in getting the intended results of your system. And I think people kind of just need to keep, maybe keep it as simple as that, rather than just generating something to show auditors. Get it as something that can be value added to the business. I think it's one of the things that gets kind of continually missed is the standard gives you, or they all give you kind of a set agenda essentially, kind of in terms of the inputs. And it's all prescribed there in the standard for you. And that's kind of, you like, maybe potentially the easier part of it. I think maybe the bit that sometimes gets missed through auditors included, Mike, is the the outputs of the process and and that the outputs of process don't necessarily mean like we say a set of minutes. It's more about decisions and actions and things that can affect the system. Ultimately, that's kind of where it's heading. Yes, the output of the process is the important bit, isn't it really? How you actually get there is irrelevant. yeah, that's it. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I don't think you just let that go, sorry. typical management review then that we see? Probably nine times out of ten. Yeah, go on. nine times out of 10, it's usually kind of like the person that you're dealing with on day-to-day basis sitting with maybe one or two other people or consultant maybe if they're involved, is absolutely fine. But, then just kind of, know, going through a set of kind of preset agenda items, you know, that largely align with the standard, not always. And then kind of usually just kind of a statement, a line that can be sometimes even just a one word answer, you know, kind of, you know. Are resources effective? Yes. And you think to yourself, well, it's not necessarily wrong, but it's kind of, it giving you kind of like, you know, the detail that you might need or expect, you know, it's kind of, it's almost like you're, I use this phrase a lot and it's a bit naff, but it's kind of like your maths homework, kind of showing your answers, know, showing your work in so it's a support your answers. If you're, if you're saying something's okay, kind of based upon what and is there something to be, to be had behind that, you know, and kind of, you know, and I think the, yeah, typical kind of reviews are. Usually kind of pretty succinct, kind of short and not a lot of information. But I think that's not necessarily an issue because that can be used as a means for auditors to then kind of maybe go off on different tangents. know, we don't rely on a set of minutes as evidence of a review process as part of the auditing. We're expected to go off in different directions and talk and interact. But obviously what we would be interested in is kind of the decisions and outputs that have come and how those actions and outputs are. subsequently kind fed into your management system and acted upon essentially if there's decisions being made okay well how do they get communicated so what was it's not just a set of minutes oh good done that okay put it in the folder and away we go kind of thing it should be a live kind of process very much so everyone leaves it to the week, the two weeks before we go in, don't they? It's just like, you've just done it, yeah, you just thought you had to do it, but yeah, do it middle of the year, or like you say, it's ongoing, do it monthly and things like that, isn't it? I think that's the thing I say to people. So what do you do? Like, do you have like board meetings? Do you have kind of staff meetings, progress? Obviously, I think the thing to remember within the standard talks about top management shall review the system, which is obviously a key part of it. But it doesn't necessarily mean kind of exclusively, you know, it can obviously you can get people involved and, know, and use inputs from other meetings or outputs from other meetings to feed into the review process, you know, so that may be kind of various, you know, kind of organisations, communications stages. Various stages throughout what they do and it be an idea of just consolidating those into into into you know a review part of the review process not necessarily, know in one go because You know ourselves might care all the time, you know, you're trying to someone's it when you're doing something at the end of the year So say you're reviewing something, you know at the end of the calendar year and you're trying to remember what happened in February It's it's kind of pretty pretty hard going, you know, and it's kind of what was that? We said something there did we okay and it's kind of just You know, it can be difficult. So if you leave things until the end of the year or you know end of a period, it can be pretty hard going to remember what everyone was supposed to be doing, know, so, everyone agreed to. And it's easier for people to duck out as well. If it's a long time ago, they can say, well, yeah, I don't remember then being asked to do that, you know, so. Yeah, I get quite a lot of organisations that have sort of weekly, some have daily, some have monthly meetings and they cover a lot of the topics that they should be discussing, resources, how supplies are performing and then they feel like they've got to sit down once a year before we go in and just do another meeting that's kind of like, what's the point of that one? You've covered it throughout the year, you've used it, I can see you've been reviewing the system. Yeah, that's the thing. It's kind of like, oh, that's our ISO management review. And that's kind of, guess that's kind of one of the traps that people can fall into in a lot of elements of their management system. It's, you know, kind of, oh, that's our ISO management review, but this is our business. If this is our business review and you say, oh, there's our management review and you start asking questions and they say, oh yeah, we do like strategic review quarterly. We have this and that and they have, well, let's have a look at that then, you know, kind of don't make a distinction. Don't make a distinction between an ISO review, if you like. and things that you already do. And I think that could be one of the tricks of a management system, if you want to call it that, is just working smart with what you've got and the information and the processes that you've already got, but just making sure that's consolidating and obviously considering the things that the standard asks you to consider, but not exclusively embed it into parts of what you're doing. So, important. asks you from an evidence perspective is actually quite small, isn't it? The outputs. There's nothing as like, obviously the standards vary very slightly, different standards, but you know, in 9001 I think it's like four key bits, isn't it? Is the output. Technically, that's all you need to demonstrate as an output, isn't it? Yeah, and I think you're right. So yeah, 9001 in particular was just three kind of uses again. It's what the output to the management view shall include, like the decisions and actions related to from 9001 , it's opportunities for improvement and resources and changes. Interesting thing I noticed just as part and parcel of, you know, preparing for this and reviewing the standards as it goes to show, you don't know everything until you read it. Always have the standards open, particularly under environmental and health and safety systems. I don't know what would be under. maybe the aerospace, we can talk about that. But certainly from an environmental health and safety perspective, there's a real kind of heavy, well, heavy, some kind of like really kind of, you know, important aspects of the output process that it asks you to talk about, including things about opportunities about improving the integration of the system with other business processes and implications for like kind of strategic direction of the organisation So quite kind of, you know, they're not kind of wishy washy things. It's kind of like they're quite kind of chunky saying, okay, if you're operating. health and safety and environmental quality system. It's not just about having something to show the auditor. It's about kind of, know, these are decisions that affect the business, the people that work in it, you know, and our performance and our, you know, and the way we perceive as a business. So it's really, it really is hugely important. It goes back to the first point. Don't just sit down and have a meeting. Make sure you review your system, you know, that is adequate, effective and suitable for what you're trying to achieve. That's the key thing. It really isn't. It sounds daunting, but the reality is you know yourself Mike, people will be doing this, you know, and it's just kind of just crystallizing it and forming into a process that's happening and is controlled and the right people are involved and indeed it's evidence to one form or another. yeah, definitely. evidence it? So if they're not going to do a meeting, take minutes as such, how could they demonstrate it? Yeah, mean, obviously there's, yeah, obviously minutes is kind of the default way, you know, but that's kind of necessarily a way to effective. I mean, I've seen various people record actions in their kind of, sometimes people have actions logs, have kind of CRMs that they work with various software things that, that go along. Um, there's various ways that people kind of, you know, choose to, you know, kind of, you know, there can be various tasks, loads of things of software nowadays in terms of, you know, task systems and allocations and so on. It doesn't necessarily need to be, you know, like a load of words. can be generated by, you know, information that's presented to the workforce or whoever it may be, you know, and what the outputs can not necessarily, maybe actually lead into inputs into other processes. So it may be kind of the outputs of the overall review might actually kind of form an input into, you know, strategic planning or financial planning or, know, whatever it may be. And I think that's that's the thing. We're more than happy as auditors to accept various forms of information over the years. The idea of just sitting in front of a folder, opening through it going through a big reim of paper, are there it all is , happy days, see you later kind of things. We're kind of very prepared now and indeed like it when we're to interact with the system more and the business. think, yeah, ways of evidence in that, Obviously documentation, certainly another system, but also... That can be evidenced by means of us interviewing other people and getting involved. that action was allocated to that person, that department, with us. Okay, we can go and talk to them and evidence it in actual actions. And outputs and decisions may result in actual changes to infrastructure and work processes. So we may go and see how those things have actually been materialized and put through the system. So, yeah. could do a business plan, can't you, off the back of it that highlights resource needs or something like that, couldn't you? It shows you've reviewed it and you've identified those are the resources you need or sort of, I don't know, maybe a KPI on someone to get certain resources in place. That's another method. I think in the aerospace quite a bit, I think it's general manufacturing, but they have daily production meetings quite often. They've a big whiteboard or something that they're drawing on and they've got key things. Where are we on the deliveries for raw materials? Things like that. What contracts have we got coming up? Where are people being assigned that day? That's all evidence of management reviewing and we attend them. That's part of the evidence that this is what you do and I can see it on the whiteboard where you're scribbling around each day. We've attended it. Yeah, that's good evidence for me. I think the uh The one that got my head going once was a client we used do in America that you'll remember but their other site. Obviously I won't say who it was. And their management review was done every day and they had a massive whiteboard in their staff canteen and they had magnetic like the acetote acetane things or acetote I should say. Yep. And every day they just went for each thing and a different person was responsible for each one of the management team. And they literally went, it's sort of a 15 minute thing, but it was like, right, where are we with the resources and things like that? And it was just, and they would just update it every day. And that was their record. So they'd go hand write notes on it and things like that. I thought it was brilliant because it's actually being used, it's not being done for our benefit. They didn't have minutes, they didn't produce them. Basically that's how it is and that's what we're doing and we're actually using this mechanism to move the business forward. Yeah, I think that's the thing and it's a key thing is there just I know, and in the health and safety kind of standard, it says that relevant outputs should go out to kind of workers or their representatives and so on. But there's not I know that's kind of exclusive in terms of words in from from ISO 45001 perspective. But there's no reason why the elements of the output to the management review process couldn't or shouldn't be communicated out. You know, obviously, there may be some things that, you know. sensitive and commercially, you know, in confidence and so on. But there's no reason why these are just kind of a piece of paper sitting in a folder. kind of get people involved and, you know, kind of let them know what's being decided because it can also help to, you know, get everyone involved in everything, big committees around everything. if people are involved in the process and kind of can see what's happening and they're involved in the decision making, then it can ultimately it makes it much harder for them to kind of resist it when they're actually asked to do it. So it's kind of actually, you know, kind of well. you're part of that review process and it may not be appropriate at every stage and there may be certain things within the management review that are exclusive to the senior leadership team or top management and so on. there's no reason why certain elements of it shouldn't and indeed the standards kind of ask for that. It's a good way of pushing the information. It's not just about gathering information, it's pushing the information out as well and giving the feedback and what's going on out there. thing I don't like though when people do minutes and if you choose minutes that's fine. I it's probably 90 % of the organisations is they'll have sort of the category internal audits. Yes done or up to date. Non-conformance is none outstanding. It's like that's not really the purpose of it. should be well how many audits are done? have any findings? we have any trends? Do we need to adjust their audit plan? Same thing with non-conformance. I'm more interested in were there any trends in it. Not whether they're closed or open necessarily. We've had 50 findings internally raised. 50 of them were for grinding. Well we've got a problem in grinding. What's the decision we're doing off the back of that? But again, you wouldn't wait a whole year to do that would you? If you waited a whole year to suddenly go, hang on, we've got a bit of a problem here, something's gone wrong. standing there watching what's going to happen. Oh blimey, look at that look down over there. That's no good. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. can do something about that when we're ready at the end of the year. So yeah, I think that's the thing. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. the reality of it, is it? You're not going to wait a whole year. it's a bit like kind of I suppose I know we're not talking about kind of internal audits and that kind of thing necessarily but it's part of that you could argue that is all part of the review process and it's kind of there's the internal audit it's all in one go before the auditor comes in there's your management review yeah all done like the day before and you think to yourself like it's just is it it an effective process in terms of what we're asking what you know what the standards looking for is it is it compliant I expect that's the difference you know is it compliant Yes, is it an effective way of doing it? Maybe not the best way, know, obviously, I know there's different sizes and shapes of organisation. I know we've been into many over the years, you know, from one person sitting in their front room quite literally, which I know we're both an organisation through to kind of big multi site, multi million pound dollar organisation. So, yes, everything has to be, you know, one approach is not a fit or certainly not, you know, but I think the spirit and the intent of it. The standard is the standard. asks for the same things, whether you're one or many, you know, and it's, and it's, I think it's getting your head around the intent of it, you know, and ultimately, yes, talk about the things it's asking you to talk about, but get those, those outputs. I think that's kind of the real, it's one of the things I've kind of even probably relatively recently, you know, it's kind of looked to the actual output stage and say, you know, what, what is actually being done here? You know, what is the, what is, what is happening? I think when you're, you know, when you're one person on your own working from your front room, which, you know, it's out there. What do we do now? You know, kind of kind of do I sit down and have a conversation with myself? I don't know. I don't know how you feel about that, Mike, but it's kind of when you get that kind of question like, well, how do I review my own system? It's kind of what do I do? But it's not about I think that comes back to our point. It's not about having a meeting with yourself. It's about reviewing system. That's the thing, because, you know, you probably get a lot of disagreement if you meet with yourself, but know, some time, but whenever I come to a conclusion, but yeah. do get that question quite a lot from solopreneurs and things like that. How do I do a management review? It's just me. Well, you know, there's more than one way to skin a cat. know, business plans, notes where they've thought about stuff or some kind of evidence that made some kind of decision to proceed with something. know, yeah, it's like you say, you don't sit down and have a meeting with yourself. And I think that's exactly it. That's kind of it. So how do I review my own system? Or how do I have a review of myself? And that's not what it's about. I have a meeting, sorry, with myself. It's about that, know, it's reviewing your system. I think that's the key thing, just looking at the words, you know, the suitable, is it adequate for what you're trying to achieve? And is it effective? I think that's the word that runs through the standard. You you're looking for, is it effective, you in trying to achieve your intended outcomes, you your objectives, know, your customer focus, your, you know, your controls that you're trying to... much trying to implement so but yeah it's it does vary there's an awful lot of awful lot of variation out there you know in terms of it's not fair to say that you know i think it's not fair to say like there's bad management reviews or bad meetings it's maybe just kind of like you know it's maybe not always doing the what the organisation does justice maybe that's the fair way of putting it and kind of in a say getting that yeah getting that point across They're like, okay, we believe that you're doing it and we can see obviously the business is functioning, you know, we're here, you you're working, you're making money, good, willing, it's ultimately it's like, okay, but kind of just, yeah, just getting a habit of, know, of getting those things written down and it's not just, you know, to show us, it's so those things that are written down so that you can remind the relevant people that you can remind yourself, you know, kind of that's what we decided. There's nothing worse than gathering loads of information and not necessarily. kind of action in any way, you know, it happens, you know, everyone's busy, you know, but all the more reason to, you know, I think that's the thing as well. Just, just thinking as I'm kind of talking here, it's kind of, know, do we need to change the system? You know, because it's like, well, you know, we've been doing this, you know, in this particular fashion, is it the best way of doing it? You know, I think that's, I know we've lost, maybe change is another thing for us talk about another podcast, but it's, know, people think, we've got to carry on doing that because that's the way it was set up like. two, three, five, 10 years ago, you know, and it's, that's what we've always done it, you know, and it's, um, but don't need to be afraid of, of changing the whole thing, you know, so I'm not, yeah, that's, yeah, yeah, I've always done it that way. Yeah, I've always done it that way, but it's, uh, it can be tough though There's businesses out there and people, people do see it as a bit of a, a challenge on their time and getting particularly, I guess, you know, top management together. It's like, Oh, you know, I've got to get these people together and they've not got the time and That can be a challenge as well, know, for organisations, you know, say like, getting the senior leadership team together or top management team together, that could be a challenge as well. But, you know, unfortunately, the same. that's when you're better off breaking it down, aren't you? You could have middle management and teams making decisions doing certain things and then every now and then it flows up for the big oversight. Like you say, they'll do a board meeting once a year or something where they can make those decisions. I've seen that and they don't want me to see the full minutes of a board meeting. Totally understand because obviously there's... here. sensitive stuff but what they do is they do like snapshots out of it or here's a section that where we've discussed that and they just show me that and okay that's fine you know don't don't create a meeting for me Definitely not, no. I think that's the thing. That's a good point actually, kind of, know, all those standards got these things that you shall talk about and so on. If you want to call them agenda items that they cause him inputs as we all know into the process, but you don't, doesn't mean you have to talk about them all in one go because it may be that it's not always appropriate to talk about, you non-conformity is bad example, but you know, there may be certain things that come up on every meeting. There may be things actually. we're going to defer that for that's more relevant to that meeting on that frequency. know, the standards not explicit, you know, it's kind of quite open in that regard to what's effective for you as a business, make it the size and shape of review meeting. If you want to call it that, that, that, that suits you, that the size and shape of what you are, don't you don't need to talk about everything all at once, all in one go. You know, it's a, cause it can, well, can be, that can be, that could that be a long meeting, particularly some organisations that could be a long old afternoon as you, as you well know, but it's, And it's keeping people's attention for a period of time and what's relevant is key to the process, I suppose one of the inputs is review your policy, your quality policy or environmental policy, whatever it is. Well, you could just sign it every year or something, couldn't you? And re-date it. That's me reviewing it. Yeah, I think just think outside the box, I think, really for people. the thing. kind of, it's like so many things with it. It's easy to overthink. It's kind of like, you know, just if not with the policy itself, it's, know, yes, it's like it exists, but kind of like, is it actually still suitable for what we're trying to achieve? You know, the policy statements, just a real key document in what you're doing. Cause it, the standard talks about, you know, intended outcomes. Well, one of those intended outcomes is kind of embedded within your policy. You know, I was at a client the other day and the previous auditor quite rightly raised There was a commitment to something in their policy X, Y, Z. and there was just no evidence they were going anywhere near it, or even trying to. So was like, well, okay, well, there's an issue, know, well, hang on. If it's not gonna align with what we're trying to achieve, then that's all the more reason to have an effective review process that captures these things, that you're not going kind of further down the line, getting further and further away from what you're actually trying to achieve. That's the thing, because it could be, well, hold on, we need to completely reshape this whole thing, because otherwise it's just gonna be just a nonsense, you know, and it's important that you capture it. or are we going in the wrong direction? Exactly. But it may be that you're going to complete the right direction, but the policy is saying something different that you're never going to get near, you know, well, okay, well, let's change the policy then. It's not necessarily that, know, we've got to carry on doing what we've always done, like we've already said. But it's yeah, it's there's nothing wrong. And if you've got an effective management review process that is considering the right things and making the right decisions, then yeah, that can have that can, you know, that can impact, you know, like your policy, your objectives, your structure, the look and feel of like business, way that it works, the processes and everything that sits around it, you know, so, yes, it is an important part. Yes. It's, I think it's probably, I mean, spoke about it just for the last 20 minutes or so. It's kind of, you realize kind of like how you get in the habit, maybe as of looking at things and yeah, accepting it, accepting it, but not necessarily kind of challenging it. And it's, and I think that's, you know, we're not there to, you know, expose or trip people up, but it's certainly, we're there to kind of, you know, so, well, okay, what were the actual, what was the decisions here? actually What was that? What was the what happened? You know, we've all been in many, many meetings where you've come out and gone, well, I no idea what that was all about. know, no one was able to do anything. Well, I don't know. But we spoke about a lot of stuff. But I think that's kind of where people devalues the process and maybe gets a bit frustrating. It's like another meeting, sit there, you know, another hour of life gone or whatever it may be. But it doesn't need to be that way. So we don't expect it. You know, we don't expect that level of intense kind of focus during a meeting. But. Yeah, certainly that the process is reviewed and yeah, let this happen. oh new technologies people are I know I've seen Power BI being used or Google Data Studio like we use. Have you seen that quite a bit yet or not? I think there's, mean, people, mean, obviously there's kind of, if you like the, there was a kind of the obvious things that have come about, certainly maybe since, you know, since over the last four or five years or so of kind of like means of interacting, you the idea of having to have everyone in a room together, if you want to call it that, you know, if you can have a traditional meeting process. Um, but if you're going to use a review process, I think, you know, cause the review is about, you know, looking at data, looking at information, get information back. And I think, yeah, the way by means means means by which people, sorry, Capturing information and presenting it to the senior top management is changing. Certainly I think there's obviously even down to relatively kind of so forth. I know it's something that can be done. know Google is very good at these things in terms of transcripts and things, kind of just capturing conversations that otherwise would have been maybe lost. of, it might be like, we're talking all the time, I'm having these things, but if there's a means of capturing that intelligently and reasonably accurately, that can be evidence of a review as well. It may just be well. You use the technology that's out there, certainly, for sure. we've used it, we? We have a meeting, Google Meet, and I know Teams does it, we don't use it, but it transcribes it and then it spits out summary that basically that's the key point you'd spoke about and these are your actions. Brilliant! Just that. That's it. So another one, just the client we were at just only last week, Michael, we was going through and they said we was talking about it wasn't quite management review, but it was it was like participation consultation, but it was kind of embedded with the review process as well. And they have kind of like an all hands or like a company teams meeting. And they said, I've got the recordings here. Did you want to see one? said, OK, fair enough. And I thought that was more like health and safety bias. But they did. They said we do. like a senior leadership one as well that's kind of captured. So it doesn't necessarily need to be, I know we're going back to meetings again, but the idea is that you can, if there's conversations being had, you know, these are like every week they were having these, you know, and it was kind of, well, okay. And they keep more recorded, you know, cause the space is out there now. It's not like the old days when you had to save it all to a, on your disc somewhere, it's just out there held, isn't it? And they said, Oh, would you want to see one? So I had a little look for a couple of minutes, got an idea of the things they were talking about. And it just showed that there was a... review process and then it went on to talk about well okay that's all well and good but you know what happens when there's decisions and actions will they get held here and it's just anything that's pertinent you know keeps keep things moving and rolling along so for sure yeah yeah yeah all the time yeah they've got group chats in there where they're talking about resources especially sort of construction you know it's you reviewing it we need this need that it's got to be done yeah what went wrong here it's all part of it isn't it Definitely. And I think it's the way that auditing has changed as well. Like I said earlier, when we started out with in many, moons ago and it was like your management review and that's just what was presented and that was it. Whereas now you have to kind of put a different sort of approach and style to the whole thing. You've got to be prepared to kind of go and ask and if someone says they're doing something, well, it may not be on a piece of paper in front of you, but you've got to go out and see that it's happening and evidence it that way around. It may not be, I know the standard says, documented information. of results of the review process, documentation doesn't mean necessarily if you record a piece of paper or like a word document or whatever it may be, can be, know, documentation can be in the form of like a system or, you know, some kind of, you know, evidence that it, it's actually happening. It's that idea that it's information that shows what's happening or what's the result of the process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it's, Brilliant. Yeah, so I think in summary, don't just pay lip service to it, tick boxes and present it with minutes. Don't do it for our benefit, do it for your benefit really. 100 % yeah that's the same and the same rules apply for kind of like nearly every clause in the standard you know obviously we need to see it happening but the way that it's presented is down to you as a business you know make it make it effective and workable if you look at what you're already doing and kind of maybe look at that one and kind of look okay we're already talking about that here would you really talk about it again once a year no not necessarily well we'll we'll just say ask tell the order that's when we do it so yeah made our job harder there it giving all these things but I don't know, I like it when people think outside the box and come up with a different idea and make makes me think a little bit and just kind of say, yeah, that works. It's yeah, yeah, definitely cool. Brilliant. yeah. Absolutely. No, not at all. No, yeah. So, yeah, good stuff. Yeah, brilliant. Cool. Yeah, maybe we'll do another one on... I don't know, what was he saying earlier? What was he saying? the more you talk about it, more you kind of think, but it's, yeah, I think maybe like change or something like that, or kind of like even like the internal audit processes. can be some of these things that are so maybe considered a bit kind of dry within the whole thing, but they're so important. I think people lose track of the importance of your policy statement, the internal audit and the management review process. I think they become so kind of, let's have look at your management reviews and internal audits, but no actual, you don't actually sort of. They get a bit kind of whats the word but lost amongst all the chatter don't know it's just so there's your management review. Yeah, okay Thank you very much. Yeah, I've done that and it's like actually yeah, it's you know, it's a lesson for you know, it's not not clients It's not consultants. It's all it's not all this is it's just I think everyone should become maybe a little bit kind of you know Not numb to it, but they're a little bit kind of you know desensitized maybe Yeah, yeah, that's it that's jazz it up jazz it up it. I like those words. Jazz it up. Yeah. Cool. Brilliant. Cool. We'll catch you soon. Cheers. Cheers.