Changing Certification Bodies Without the Chaos – A Step-by-Step Guide

Summary

This conversation delves into the intricacies of certification processes, focusing on client transfers and the roles of certification bodies. Michael Venner and Martin Graham discuss how clients can seamlessly transfer their certifications without losing time, the importance of communication between certification bodies, and common misconceptions surrounding the transfer process. They emphasise the need for personal interaction and managing client expectations throughout the certification cycle.

Takeaways

• The certification process is crucial for maintaining industry standards.
• Clients do not lose time during the transfer of certifications.
• Communication between certification bodies and clients is essential.
• The transfer process is designed to be seamless and efficient.
• Understanding the risks involved in certification is important.
• Personal interaction enhances the certification experience.
• Clients should be aware of their rights to transfer certifications.
• Managing client expectations is key to a smooth process.
• Misconceptions about certification transfers can lead to unnecessary panic.
• The certification cycle remains consistent during transfers.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Certification Transfers

01:07 Reasons for Transferring Certification Bodies

05:37 The Transfer Process Explained

08:26 Understanding the Transfer Process

10:08 Navigating Certification Body Communication

12:24 Ensuring Compliance and Validity

14:45 Seamless Transition and Client Experience

17:33 Finalizing the Transfer and Client Notifications

21:37 Understanding the Aerospace Certification Process

23:52 The Importance of Risk Management in Audits

26:27 Navigating Non-Conformities and Findings

29:03 The Role of Independent Review in Certification

31:09 Simplifying the Transfer Process for Clients

Key Links

Auva Website: www.auva.com

Apple Podcast:  https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/by-all-standards/id1771677594

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/79OUNj3vY9dmESR3okwHJa?si=871837f56dc149b6

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@auvacertification/podcasts

LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/company/auva-certification-ltd 

Instagram: @auvacert

Michael Venner:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelvenner-isocertificationexpert/ 

Martin Graham:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-graham-657251173/

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Certification Transfers
• 1:07 Reasons for Transferring Certification Bodies
• 5:37 The Transfer Process Explained
• 8:26 Understanding the Transfer Process
• 10:08 Navigating Certification Body Communication
• 12:24 Ensuring Compliance and Validity
• 14:45 Seamless Transition and Client Experience
• 17:33 Finalizing the Transfer and Client Notifications
• 21:37 Understanding the Aerospace Certification Process
• 23:52 The Importance of Risk Management in Audits
• 26:27 Navigating Non-Conformities and Findings
• 29:03 The Role of Independent Review in Certification
• 31:09 Simplifying the Transfer Process for Clients

Transcript

0:16

Hello, welcome everybody to the next podcast joined back by Martin Graham, our chief operating officer. today we're going to talk about say again after great demand. Yeah, the phone lines were buzzing. Yeah. Yeah. So today we're to talk about transfers. Okay. It's quite a quite a big part of what we do, transferring from other certification bodies, people that have already got certified. So thought we'd just highlight some of the processes around it and why people transfer and things like that. So Martin actually processes our transfers, don't you, internally. So you manage that process. yeah yeah they will ultimately come through me apart from the aerospace side which I know we'll talk about as we go through but yeah ultimately they filter through me as a point yeah point. Yeah, the aerospace is slightly different, which we will touch on. But generally the process for other schemes is relatively the same for each of them. So yeah, so Martin, so why do people transfer first of all, I suppose? That's probably one of the... it's a good question and I guess it's one of the primary reasons we've discovered over the years is it's really kind of just service levels essentially. think it's service levels and cost is the main factors, both obviously nowadays, big factors in people's businesses and ways of thinking. Certainly given we're in a service industry, sometimes that can get lost on some of our competitors, shall we say. People struggle sometimes with communication with their certification body. They sometimes find it frustrating that there's no response or kind of dead ends in terms of communication. People also get frustrated with chopping the changing of auditors or lack of auditors availability, those kinds of things. And it just proves frustrating, you know, because the client who's certified, they're paying for the service and they just, they really just need their certificate and need things as they need to be. But at the same time. It's not just about people turning up and having an audit, it's about that interaction and support when you need it at various points along the way, which is something that we kind of really focus on. And obviously cost as well, that's a big factor nowadays. It's coming in more more into business, I guess as it always done, but think people are a bit more sensitive to it nowadays. So think yes, certainly service and cost are the main factors that are coming to play with us. Yeah, because obviously we track reasons why people transfer, don't we? That's a thing we have to capture just in case we're trying to do anything untoward. So on applications, people have to say why they want to transfer. That's something UCAS checks. And obviously we track it actually just for our own information and data. So yeah, it's definitely a service thing. interesting. I'll go into a name and shame, to speak, but it's interesting that there does seem to be sort of a trend, if you like, with transfers. it's kind of quite telling in terms of I think sometimes, you know, this isn't a hard and fast rule, but sometimes you find when certification bodies get, or any business, suppose, to some degree gets bigger and bigger, that kind of that personal kind of element, you can't have kind of one to ones with every client. I know something that we sort of focus on is being able to, know me and yourself, Mike, as sort of shareholders and directors, we're very much aware of every business and get involved at points, you know, and it's not just to kind of, we don't just leave it to a big sort of telephone center, call center or something like that that just kind of puts pegs in holes. We try and keep the personable side of it available. And I know that's a big kind of selling point for where we try and ourselves. It is tricky the larger you get isn't it? You lose a bit of not focus as such but I suppose knowledge of everything, everyone, every client because I know there's a couple of names because obviously I focus a bit more on aerospace. I see some client names I'm like I haven't heard of them and it's not a nice feeling but I know you're a bit more closer to that than I am. That's it and I think as well even if and like you say you can't you can't really and you don't expect to cut There's some names just always stick in my mind and I'm sure with you But it's I think it's just might just you get that it's just that response people don't like things should disappear and even if you can't answer the question straight away or something like that, it's just acknowledgement I think yeah, it's okay and we just we just that that response to clients that we try and give it's so important and Just managing expectations, you know, the standard talks about needs and expectations of of interesting parties. I won't quote too many times of the standard, it's like fundamentally, it's looking okay, the clients, they need something, they want something, and we're there to manage it. And it's quite simple, what goes on. And it's amazing how badly it can get kind of, yeah, it can get upset by people. And clients feel that they're just not getting the service they feel they should, and deserve, ultimately, so yeah. Yeah, I think some people lose sight that we're providing a service. Yeah, we're there to do a job but at the end of the day we're still providing a service aren't we? That's exactly right. I say we're very much very much embedded in like the service sector and it's um, yeah It's just so important that's not that's not forgotten. Yeah, so yes fundamental reasons certainly. Yeah service levels communication associated with that and And costs certainly as well. I think they're certainly the main factors. I guess sometimes there may be elements of people Don't don't like people or fall out or I guess as well stitch I guess obviously a service costs certainly but also I guess sometimes there may be relationships involved in these things as well and you know, they may be elements of kind of consultants and relationship people moving around different companies that may come from somewhere that know a body and then want to kind of stay with that relationship going, you know, so there's a much smaller element, but there's elements of that as well. Cool. So what's the overall sort of process really? How does someone go about transferring? Yeah, pretty straightforward. think the helps in this industry, there's a we work under a set of documents, like mandatory documents. there's one called don't know, and I still remember this or get get too involved in this. But there's one called MD two, which is a mandatory document number two. And it kind of sets out very clearly what's required by by the issuing and accepting CB, the issuing certification body being the body that's, you know, we're transferring from and us being accepting body. So It's actually a really, really straightforward process, I think people kind of sometimes feel it's a bit more complicated than it is. essentially, once a client notifies us and says, want to transfer, we get some certain baseline information from the client, obviously about themselves. And they quite often provide information to us, which is useful. But we are obliged, actually, as part of the transferring process to contact the issuing certification body and request certain information from them. And that basically consists of audit reports up to and including and from kind of the last reassessment or initial assessment, the current certificates, and just a confirmation of a few bits of information by the issuance CB, such as things like any regulatory breaches that they're aware of, any open nonconformities, and the fact that the certification is actually valid, you know, because it can happen whereby maybe certification has been withdrawn or suspended. So obviously in those instances we can't do it. yeah, fundamentally we're just required and obliged to make sure that certification is valid, that there's no issues fundamentally and we're painting the picture. Once that's all come through, we conduct an internal review, is majority of times it's myself who's undertaken it. We just basically make sure that the certificate is, the certification essentially is as it needs to be and we're happy and. the road and comfortable that the certification is as it needs to be. So I think a lot of that is down to like the risk within the industry because obviously you know we don't want to there's a lot of integrity to what we do and that's important that's maintained. yeah essentially we look we're looking for valid, safe and yeah no issues with the certification process. So once we've got that. body then? Yeah, okay. So basically what happens is the what we do we would it's usually about is it's an email notification Okay, so what happens is we've got a standard email that goes out So once a transfer has come in it's been accepted and as one as it one as a client we have process where a System issues out an email to the issuing body that says dear dear so-and-so All the certification are looking to transfer certification of such as such and it requests very clearly the information that's required. And we do actually CC the client into that communication as well. OK, so how's the actual overall process work then for transferring? How does that work? Yeah, okay, so as we kind of any kind of initial application if you like it works with us Go to an application process whereby the fills in an application form or gives us the information that we require and as part of that process they will just indicate that they are that they're to transfer from another certification body Okay, so what we then do we would then carry out a usual contract review process determine the time issue a quotation much as we would do if it was just going to be an initial certification that the client was going for. And all we would do basically Mike is pick up the cycle, we'd quote it kind of a like for like cycle with the client's existing certification. So say for example, they were due, only due a second surveillance and we would just quote for that or if they were coming up to their reassessment, we would quote for their reassessment and then surveillance and so on. So the idea being that. to the start then, do they? that's exactly that's important thing to remember actually is that yeah that the client actually doesn't all things being well If as long as everything goes to as it should the the the client doesn't lose any time in their their certification cycle More often than not they don't have to have any additional audit time to to to kind of transfer the process Very rare occurrences where that that happens who is required but we'll talk to that as we go through But yeah, but the idea is that we pick up a like for like certification in terms of program and validity as well. So Once the certification has all been issued, the certificate validity remains, the cycle remains the same essentially. That's something that's a query quite often get. Do I need to start again? What happens here? So yeah, it's basically a like for like cycle that we quote for. Really important, yeah. really Yeah, basically, yeah, quotation gets issued and obviously if the client is happy with that, then that gets the acceptance. And then it really then kind of, we begin the actual kind of transfer and notification process itself. And what that entails is that we contact the issuing certification body, so that where the client's coming from. There's a standard email goes out from our systems, all automated there and the client actually gets included in those communications. So they get. Notified on how things are progressing Or not as a case may be with some CBs, but ultimately, yeah, we give a notification to the issuing CB Requesting some information. Okay And one of the kind of baseline criteria there's some some mandatory criteria that we need to ensure and that's that the the issuing body is accredited by You know about body that's recognized by it within our sector and industry, but that's part and parcel of our due diligence if you like because sadly and we've come across this recently is we won a of course by surprise at a client that we're both going to Mike and unfortunately there one part of their certification was accredited and the other side wasn't and we actually had to start again and it caused a bit of frustration and upset but it doesn't happen that often but they thought it was all good and all accredited and when we went to actually contact the issue in CB It turns out they didn't have the accreditation for the standard that they were, that we were looking to track, I was saying. They didn't know, no, they got really quite upset. And initially it was kind of like, it wasn't aimed at us, of course, but when we explained the situation. yeah, we had to quote for a whole new assessment, but it doesn't happen that often. And for the vast majority of times, it's a very simple process. we just, yeah. But the onus on that verification sits with us as the transferring body and accepting body to basically solicit the information that's communicate and liaise with the issuing certification body. And there is actually a mandatory requirement that I think some of them have kind of forgotten that they are required to provide timely and accurate information. It needs to be a degree of cooperation and that's mandated within the industry that we're working in. cooperation, don't we? So some are very... Yeah, we really do, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. Good point, actually. You know, think to yourself, yeah, if they're not communicated as they're mandated to and required to by, you know, their accreditation, then what kind of information they're giving to their clients. But yeah, so the process, yeah, like from the client side of it, they don't actually see or have to get involved to any great degree at all, really. Once that initial kind of kind of application and accepted, we essentially pick up the weight of the process and. Communicate the eyes with the issuing certification body and all we're after really is like I mentioned earlier just painting that picture or getting enough suitableness sufficient information that allows us to transfer a like-for-like certificate. yeah, what we're looking for really is that like I say, the certificate is valid, that there's not been any issues with the auditing or the certification, that there's outstanding nonconformities or actions or responses. And that's probably a good point to pick up on is that If you are thinking of transferring, it's just to make sure if you like your houses and all, so to speak. So if you have had a visit and there were some actions that you're required to respond to in terms of non-performances, it's important that, you know, get those actions in because otherwise that could cause a little small delay in the process to make sure essentially that you've responded as you need to and that your current CB has got all the information they need so it doesn't slow things down. Quite an important part of that. Yeah, yeah, can. Yeah, because what it is strangely, CB's certification bodies work in different ways and some of them don't always necessarily request actions or that kind of thing to address findings. And if they're minor findings and it's just something that we can look at and see that has been addressed with suitable actions, that's absolutely fine. If there are actions pending or there's responses that haven't been achieved by the client. We may on rare occasion need to kind of carry out little bit of extra effort just on our side to address that, but it's very, very rare. It's very, very rare. Obviously if there's issues around compliance in terms of regulations or legislation breach and so on, that can, obviously we need to look a little bit deeper. But I would say... Hand on my heart, I would say I've transferred even just in the last month, six weeks or so, probably eight or 10 clients and every single one of them has gone absolutely fine. No extra time at all has been required. It's just a case of just verifying, making sure that the integrity's there, there's a valid certification in place and there's no complaints, no issues, nothing that could come back and cause a problem for anyone further down the line. That's the key part of process. the I say the important thing is, like I say, there's, we need to make sure that there is a, the client's eligible for transfer. So that's making sure that the issuing certification body is accredited by a recognized body. That's the most important thing. Then we go through and request the information. Once that all comes in. We carry out a pre-transfer review, which is where we look through, make sure that we've got everything that we need. No outstanding issues, nothing that could cause any headaches, because the last thing we want to do is issue a certificate and then it come unstuck for the client further down the line. We want to make sure that we get everything in order as it needs to be. So checking things like the scope. And also as well, yeah, just making sure the reasons, because like you said earlier, we need to record the reasons why, we need to understand why. what's going on and get copies of all recent reports, any complaints, figure out where they are in the audit program in terms of your cycle and then make sure everything's as it needs to be. Pretty straightforward. it's kind of like, sign on the dotted line, we'll take care of the rest and you don't lose any certification time do you? It's kind of a seamless process, it kind of overlaps and so how's... yeah because they don't cancel the certificate do they, the previous certification body? Yeah so how's that sort of work? No, no, that's why there's something actually. Yeah. Yeah, they're not allowed to do that. Actually again, it's a rule that's in there there just because someone's transferring away You can't kind of get get all offended and be spiteful and say, okay Well, we're there can cancel your certificate then so they can't be done. No, they are required Yeah to console the information keep the certification valid until such times that we've transferred because what we then do once everything goes through we issue certificates and then we as the accepting body, we notify the previous body and say we have now transferred ABC limited and then the issue in CB closes everything down there. yeah, we try and like, is a good thing actually when I transferred my electricity over to Octopus and I was amazed how easy it was and I didn't have to do anything at all really. And guess that's what we try and do with, although we like to interact with our clients and obviously. We communicate with people as they're going along. So what we do do is once we get the information through from the issuing body, we then the system emails the client that says we've now received this. So you get you get updated all the way along. because it shouldn't take too long, but sometimes it does go on a week or so, a couple of weeks. And you sit in there kind of worrying and panicking, thinking, is that certificate going to be in jeopardy or anything like that? It's the last thing. So although we try not to interact. The reason we do that is because, not because we don't want to, it's because we don't want the client to be bothered. It's like literally the next thing you do that happens is you get nice new certificates through and we pick up the cycle. So yeah, it's almost like you don't have to keep chasing. send them. That's why I get the certificate. So yeah, what would happen is we, when the certificates come through from us, basically, they'll look obviously similar in terms of content, but they look a lot nicer. Basically the dates you'll see common dates on there in terms of certification expiry. They might notice sometimes clients query about kind of like issue dates and so on and so forth. We'll have a, there'll be a date on there in terms, the original list certification date remains the same and the expiry dates remain the same. So. It's just that kind of, essentially, you shouldn't really notice anything. The scope and everything is all identical. And then like you say, you can then pick up use of our logos and so on and so forth as part of it. One thing to remember as well is once the transfer has been complete and you've got our new certificates and so on, obviously if you're using logos or making claims with regards to certification with your previous certification body, it's really important that you... Cease use of that and just basically take take logos off of websites and emails and so on and so forth So, so yeah, the important thing there is to just any reference to your previous certification body Take that of your equation and feel free to use ours as much as you like. So yeah, so just this yet Because previous certification bodies they do they do sometimes check up and make sure that you You're not making any claims with regards to the logos and certification and so on. So yeah well that when people get notified of transfer as in the certification body they send an email or a letter straight to the client. They cease using our stuff. The amount of phone calls I get people say, my god they've cancelled my cert. I'm like it's a standard it's a bad letter or stroke email that comes out. It's standard. Don't panic they're not allowed to do anything. I think they need to reword what they're writing. because it just makes everyone panic and think no we've lost our certification and things like that but it's they should send that after the fact that it's transferred not upon the notification I think yeah that causes a few phone calls I know It does we have one just just recently just in the whip for a last and yeah the client had exactly that and it was basically within our notification went in and said we're looking to transfer please can you provide the information and Yeah, the issue is see if they actually they got an email from the client and she forwarded it through to me I said all panic we've got a transfer within we must have it all done within like three months or something and Which all right three months is a long time. It shouldn't take that long, but she the client got in a panic because they said all Are we going to get this done in time and you know, is it going to be a problem? But the fact of the matter is that they can't do that, you know, like there's obviously needs to be in a timely fashion and you can't leave it open-ended, which we wouldn't, but they can't go, they can't get spiteful and poor certification because, because, you know, you've decided to transfer away because although, you know, there are agreements in place, you know, with your body, it's, they're not, you know, they're not binding for periods of time. You know, it's not like it's, you know. They've got to be in place, but you don't need to you know obliged to stay with anyone if you're not happy That's the important thing, you know, and it should be a seamless process Like for like yeah, you don't lose any any any time Like I said earlier, there might be occasion where we would need to kind of carry out an extra visit I know within the aerospace sector There's some certain rules but for for the most part your your normal ISOs your quality environmental health and safety and Information security and so on we can just pick that up and carry on with where you are. But if we do need to carry out an extra time, we'll always make sure that we communicate and that you understand why that is. It's not just an arbitrary extra bit of time that goes on. We'll always maintain that communication with you. But like I say, for the transfers that I've done recently, it just hasn't happened. We've just gone through a nice smooth process and that is the case for the vast majority of it. So no extra time, no extra expense. just a like for like transfer, which is the way we like to manage it. Okay, so the aerospace process is quite different I suppose it follows the same principles, but we've got to approach it slightly differently So we do the quote same as how it normally would The client accepts it as they normally would and our first call to call is we have to notify the previous certification body in a similar fashion But we have to do it through the Oasis Datebase so it's slightly different in that sense so we don't send an email we send it through Oasis the client still gets copied in on that so naturally when we we basically have to search for them on the Oasis database find the client ABC company and then on the right there's a contact the certification body so we have to click that button and then we contact them through there and just we don't request all the documentation because that's in Oasis but we do say is the certificate valid OK to transfer things like that which always seems bizarre to me because Oasis tells me if it's valid anyway so it kind of almost seems a moot point but we do need to know if there's anything else pending sometimes people say they haven't paid us things like that or anything like that but so that's that process and then there's another button we have to click that basically transfers that data automatically to us so they don't ever have to send us the report or anything like that we have to click this button and there's actually a timer in there so they've got 10 days to respond to us from that initial contact and generally they're pretty good to be fair we've got the same plain nice rules as the normal scheme but they've basically got 10 days to notifiers and come back to us with any points and after that Oasis kind of flips and it gives us all the previous information and data for that client. So we'll get all the history of all the reports we can see everything and again the client gets copied in on that process. Once we've got that we'll do a kind of sanity check over it just to kind of have a look over things similar to what you do on the normal scheme but probably not as detailed at this time and then what we have to do is a formal transfer audit. So where ISO 9001, 14001 things like that you obviously don't have to do the transfer audit you're kind of doing reviewing documentation we have to physically do an audit of that. Often it's on site So if it's a fairly low risk thing and we go through the client's audit reports and there's no sort of finding, there's nothing sort of alarming, we sort of think, OK, we could do this remotely. We still need to engage with the client in that process. So we will do a remote audit, which is scheduled in. it's not just a simple documentation review. It's a more interactive kind of process. so we'll treat it as an audit and some people think, you're going to audit everything. No, we don't audit everything. We're going to just go. just to a little bit of interest, is there like the rationale behind that? Is that just because of like the risk to the sector or is that what it is to make sure that it's more, yeah, okay. quite a lot of it is risk on us. we going to take on some that's high risk? Possibly something we're not competent in. It's to protect us, protect the certificate and ultimately protect the supply chain. Because if they can't transfer or we transfer and it's incorrect and we do something wrong, it might impact their certificate which on in turn will impact the supply chain for the aerospace for the parts and things like that because it puts the certificate of risk so it's kind of the whole bits of de-risking process really yeah so we'll actually have a look over the manual we'll have a look at your internal audit program is it up to date your management review have a look over your last management review we'll do a site tour just have a little look over the processes see what machines are there see the types of processes they're key bit is we'll look at the KPIs as well are they up to date? big part of the aerospace scheme is performance measures and things like that so it's kind of where are you you know if you're on time deliveries at 10 % like whoa hang on a minute what's going on here if there were findings in yeah yeah if there were findings in the previous audit we might follow up on some of those Yeah, well where was your corrective action? Which 9 times out of 10 have already been reviewed by the previous certification body because that process is bit more rigorous But we might just have a little oversight of them If there's anything massive we might have a little deeper dive in this That's one of the, sorry, no, I was gonna say just what about the NCs and stuff is, because one of the inconsistencies we notice is, I think we've spoken about it previously, is kind of the response required by CBs to non-conformities and things. it's sometimes, it's, we've gone the extent where non-conformities have been raised and they say, okay, we won't actually check anything until the next visit. And you sit there thinking, that's a bit strange, you know, and it's, but yeah, we actually had that just recently with a CB and they said. Well, we hadn't been asked for any actions. So we actually requested what the process was and what you'd actually done internally. And then we then verified that against the findings that have been raised. yeah, just a little check and measure, like you say. it's one of the things we might do is, there's not been a formal response to your current body because they haven't requested it. might actually we'll just say, OK, what have you done to address that? Just to clarify and give us confidence. that the issue's been addressed. so that's kind of, yeah, just that little disconnect sometimes between the way that certification bodies work and practice is. But yeah, it sounds like the aerospace is a bit more rigorous in that regard in terms of making sure that the issue's been addressed, so yeah. out your non-conformities and quite often that involves an on-site visit anyway. Not everything, but quite often. Yeah, you're right in that sense, it's more rigorous and we're just checking everything's OK. So the transfer audit could be half a day, could be a full day, depends on the size of it. one I'd done last week was actually one and a half days because I multiple sites and quite a few findings on them and things like that so I actually went to each of the sites, had a look around, followed up on a few of the findings, things like that. Do you ever, and I guess it's sort of a question from myself as well, do you ever come across like where you can't transfer as in like, like you just, have to, you're not, just, for whatever reason, does that ever occur? Do you ever have any nightmare scenarios or? So is it you come across? said no, I'm not going to transfer you, but you can actually raise findings during that. So I have raised findings, so like, no, you need to fix this before I transfer you. I'm not transferring you. So I actually issue them with a non-conformance, which that's very unusual. I've only ever done that once actually. Hang on a minute, this is quite... serious kind of thing and it needs to be fixed so I'm not going to take you until that's done. I suppose it's the same rules apply. Let's say from our side, from the, I don't want to say the normal side of it, from the normal certificate, the non-AS side of it. I think the only time the experience I've ever come across where we can't is because it turns out the certification is unaccredited. I've never come across a particular set of circumstances where we just can't because the situation is dire or there's a lack of information or something. It usually goes very smoothly, but yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, I can. Half a day done, reviewed, jobs are good done. yeah, just a few of it. I say, once we do that initial review of the information on Oasis, if we see quite a few findings, it's like, OK, awesome trends maybe. It's like, OK, this is a bit higher risk. I'm going to go on site and have a look around and follow some of these up. But yeah, that sounds like it's ultimately all comes down to, as we said, kind of through the process, about, it's the risk to obviously the industry and the process, but also as well, it's about making sure the client's not left without anything, any valid certification and make sure that it's consistent and smooth and that's the main part of the process. yeah, yeah, I'd want to do it. I use that term audit because it's not a full audit in most cases. The report goes for review by someone independent, which again is slightly different to the normal QMS, EMS. So we actually send that for review. So someone else is going to look over that to check my audit, just same as they normally would. and then they're the ones that finally sort of say, good to transfer. as an extra layer. so the access in training so with the AS it's not so yeah okay yeah because with a normal transfer process it's essentially kind of myself who does the majority so I'm effectively kind of the reviewer and the decision maker to be able to make the the transfer kind of happen if you like whereas with the AAS it's that there's two kind of impartiality I suppose is that is the key to the process there making sure they're separate decision yeah okay yeah okay We update Oasis so then the organisation transfers in Oasis to us because normally it will say they're certified by such and such where that switch actually happens and it's transferred to us so we're shown there. But other than that, it's kind of the same. It is a little bit more complicated if the certificates got less than 12 months. left that's a bit more rigorous we have to actually do a stage one audit and they call it a stage two approach but not stage two audit so it's even more detailed so you'll actually be going over the full management system you'll actually be auditing some of the processes I won't go into too much detail but I tell people if you get a transfer do it with more than 12 months left on your certificate because it just adds a layer and honest I've never known why they do it this way and no one's ever given me a straight answer and it is a requirement that's going soon. So when the standard changes should be this year, might be next year, might be year after, the new requirement is you don't have to do that. guess just a quick point on that is talking there Mike about the the Oasis side of things which obviously an aerospace specific thing we do actually there's a an IAF kind of databases in there of kind of certificate certificates where you can go on and validate so although Normal certification on non AS doesn't go through quite as rigorous as I the Oasis side of things there is a database of know certifications that is out there and accessible and That's yeah, and also as well, there's no there's no kind of minimum validity to transfer, you know, I guess from a from a normal kind of like I say, Iso side of things. Obviously, if we're coming close to where a certificate is valid to say, for example, there's only a couple of months left. Obviously, we want to make sure that, you know, a client's not left without any valid certificate in that time frame. So we might look at kind of how that's going to work. We don't want obviously find ourselves with a. the short time frame to react in but yeah overall yeah like I say it's it's from a transfer side of things nothing to be afraid of it's it's nice and simple it's you know it's this cooperation that's demanded between the bodies and for the very most part that does that does work out very well you know and it's a seamless kind of process that works really well so yeah OK, thanks for your time Hopefully that's clarified some information for some people out there that might be looking at transferring Hopefully not from us but to us! It's really complicated! Don't ever do it! No, no, it is all good. It is a common thing that people ask and they wonder can we transfer? Yeah you can transfer at any time you like. Some people aren't aware of it. out there. think sometimes, yeah, like you say, there's some doubt about, know, do I need to start again? Do I lose any like any of my certification? Is there any extra effort time and this and that and the other? But the reality is it's, you know, it, from the client side of things, they don't actually have to do a great deal other than kind of approach us, accept, and then we kind of pick up the weight, if you like. We'll only ever really interact to keep you updated where on the progress and if there's any clarifications or queries, but yeah, like I say. it does usually work very smoothly. Excellent. Good stuff. Now and other time, pleasure. Hope this has been helpful to anyone, obviously feel free to contact us and if there's anything we can answer individually, always happy to do that. Happy to do that. Excellent. Lovely. You're welcome. Take care. mate. Bye bye.