Investing in People: Why Apprenticeships are a Win-Win for Business

Summary

In this conversation, Michael Venner and Beth Rhodes of Clear Quality discuss the significance of quality management and apprenticeship programs, particularly focusing on the Quality Practitioner program. They explore the structure, content, and benefits of the program, emphasising the importance of quality practitioners in driving business efficiency and continuous improvement. The discussion also covers the role of metrics, internal audits, and the impact of effective quality management on customer satisfaction. Additionally, they highlight the funding options available for apprenticeships and the transformative potential of these programs for both individuals and organisations.

Takeaways

• Quality management is essential for driving business efficiency.
• Quality practitioners play a crucial role in managing ISO standards.
• The Quality Practitioner program is a structured 14-month apprenticeship.
• Metrics and continuous improvement are key components of quality management.
• Internal audits should be seen as opportunities for growth, not just compliance checks.
• Apprenticeships are valuable for individuals at various career stages.
• Funding options for apprenticeships can significantly reduce costs for employers.
• Quality management is intrinsic to customer satisfaction and business success.
• The program encourages practical, project-based learning for real-world application.
• Investing in quality management training leads to long-term efficiency savings.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Quality Management and Apprenticeships

02:36 The Importance of Quality Practitioners

05:33 Structure and Content of the Quality Practitioner Program

08:11 The Role of Quality Managers in Business

10:54 Embedding Quality Management in Organizations

13:57 The Value of Metrics and Continuous Improvement

16:50 The Auditing Process and Its Importance

19:39 Diverse Applications of Quality Management

21:08 Mandatory MSA in Education

22:06 The Importance of Live Tutoring

23:16 Challenges in Supply Chain Management

25:04 The Cost of Cheap Suppliers

26:07 Lean Principles in Business

27:56 Transformative Power of Apprenticeships

29:29 Understanding Apprenticeship Funding

31:51 The Value of Quality Practitioner Training

34:40 How to Enroll in the Program

37:16 Real-World Impact of Quality Projects

Key Links

Auva Website: www.auva.com

Apple Podcast:  https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/by-all-standards/id1771677594

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/79OUNj3vY9dmESR3okwHJa?si=871837f56dc149b6

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@auvacertification/podcasts

LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/company/auva-certification-ltd 

Instagram: @auvacert

Michael Venner:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelvenner-isocertificationexpert/ 

Clear Quality:  

Email:  training@clearquality.co.uk

Website:  https://www.clearquality.co.uk/training/apprenticeships

LinkedIN:  https://www.lin

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Quality Management and Apprenticeships
• 2:36 The Importance of Quality Practitioners
• 5:33 The Importance of Quality Practitioners
• 8:11 The Role of Quality Managers in Business
• 10:54 Embedding Quality Management in Organizations
• 13:57 The Value of Metrics and Continuous Improvement
• 16:50 The Auditing Process and Its Importance
• 19:39 Diverse Applications of Quality Management
• 21:08 Mandatory MSA in Education
• 22:06 The Importance of Live Tutoring
• 23:16 Challenges in Supply Chain Management
• 25:04 The Cost of Cheap Suppliers
• 26:07 Lean Principles in Business
• 27:56 Transformative Power of Apprenticeships
• 29:29 Understanding Apprenticeship Funding
• 31:51 The Value of Quality Practitioner Training
• 34:40 How to Enroll in the Program
• 37:16 Real-World Impact of Quality Projects

Transcript

Michael Venner (00:16)

Okay, hello. Welcome everybody. Today we're joined with Beth from Clear Quality. Say hi Beth. And we're going to be talking about training, but with a focus on apprentice programs really.

Beth Rhodes (00:22)

Hi.

Mm-hmm.

Michael Venner (00:30)

So if you want to introduce yourself Beth and probably clear quality as well a little bit.

Beth Rhodes (00:35)

Cool, so hi, I'm Beth. I'm from Clear Quality. I'm the Training Director. We are a ISO consultancy certification and apprenticeship training provider. So based in South Yorkshire, based in Rotherham, we offer kind of national services in that sense. So yeah, come to have a chat with you guys about quality management and ISO 9001 and those kind of apprenticeships linked to it.

Michael Venner (00:59)

send people to sleep shall we? Yeah I know we think it's all good fun but when we're at sort of dinner and people ask what you do it's a bit of a

Beth Rhodes (01:01)

Yeah, well, you know, I'm really saying thank you.

Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure I've got friends who still don't actually know what I do. Yeah.

Michael Venner (01:14)

Oh yeah, yeah, I still don't know what we do to be honest.

Yeah, so cool. Yeah, so we're to talk today, like I say, focusing on apprentice programs, you know, around sort of obviously 9001, 14001 and 45001 or every standard specifically really. They all have a training element and awareness element. You know, it's important part of anything really in any.

Beth Rhodes (01:37)

Absolutely.

Michael Venner (01:41)

don't think that anyone does.

Beth Rhodes (01:41)

It is,

and you'll know that a lot of the time when it comes to things like quality management, because of what you guys do, that...

80 % of the time, person that's put in charge of looking after the ISO system is a person who's worked at the business for a really long time, but has got no actual official support or training in how to manage that. And that's how Debbie and I kind of started on this journey, was that, know, originally we just used to offer the consultancy support, but then we were thinking, well, actually, how much better would it be if an organisation could then put somebody in place who could manage that system for them going forward?

support with doing the internal audits and you know keeping it on track but without them needing us to come in consultancy wise every month to do the task and that's where we started really and yeah quality practitioner I've got a real passion about that and what a difference it makes quality managers so yeah absolutely it's about

sharing the skill and upskilling those people who are put in these roles and like, you know, you're in charge of 9001 now. And it's like, okay, sure. Training maybe? Question mark?

Michael Venner (02:50)

There's a lot of people that, yeah, they get put into that role, like you say, and then they just, there we go. Off you go. Yeah.

Beth Rhodes (02:53)

Yeah.

There you go, have a lovely time. And it's like, okay. Yeah.

So the whole point of QP is that we teach them, you know, how to actually understand all the clauses of ISO 9001 and then what they can proactively do to manage that on a, you know, day by day basis in the actual workplace. So rather than it being something that you're scrabbling around three weeks before the audit to get everything ready, actually you've got somebody who's day by day managed that process. So you haven't got that stress or worry that your surveillance or your recertification audits

coming up because you've got an embedded person who's fully trained in quality management who can look after that for you. It's in a safe pair of hands in that sense. Yeah.

Michael Venner (03:38)

Yeah, definitely.

So the quality practitioner, that's the apprentice program, is that right?

Beth Rhodes (03:43)

Yeah, so Quality Practitioner is a level four apprenticeship programme, which is the same as kind of like a higher national certificate in this country in the education system. And it's really the most formal qualification you can do in being a quality manager. And it kind of takes you, it's intrinsically linked to 9001.

You know, there's no way you could go through that, you know, and not have learned the ISO clauses. It's built into the standard. And so the idea is that you can either join Quality Practitioner and each month as part of the course, you'll build a new chunk of your system. And at the end of the course, you'll then be ready to come forward to you guys for your certification. Or it can be that, you know, we've put the system in place for you and now we're teaching somebody else to be able to look after that.

And so they, you know, you've got that person who's that key ISO quality manager within your business. And it's been so productive. Wow. We've got upwards of 70 candidates now in the South Yorkshire area and nationally that have gone through as quality practitioners. It's been so popular.

Michael Venner (04:47)

So how long is the sort of program lasting?

Beth Rhodes (04:50)

So it's 14 months in training. So the way we deliver it is kind of online training. So you'll deliver, you'll attend subject matter lectures on different subjects each month. And then at the end, you'll then go into your end point assessment, which is assessed by a separate organisation who'll come in and say, yes, have you learned? Can you do what you need to be able to do to be a quality manager, be a quality practitioner?

Michael Venner (05:15)

Okay, so every month there's a training class?

Beth Rhodes (05:19)

Yeah, yeah. So

every month they go and learn a new key skill. So it could be anything from month number one, the key skill is kind of those ISO clauses. So it's those building blocks and foundations. Month number two, they're going to learn all about lean metrics. So how to implement overall equipment effectiveness, how to look at throughput yield, how to look at workspace utilization. Month number three, they'll look at things like supplier performance. Then it goes on to policy and procedure deployment, internal auditing, risk management.

Michael Venner (05:23)

Okay.

Beth Rhodes (05:48)

management, coaching and mentoring. So there's like a whole plethora of skills that sit in there because what people don't really understand about quality management is that it's actually quite a really skilled job. You know, you do everything from train people to write policies and procedures to, you know, auditing against standards to mitigating and managing overall business risk. So there's a lot to encompass doing in that kind of.

you know, little role that everybody just kind of thinks is attack on to somebody else's full-time job and it's really not at all if you're going to do it well and you're going to do it properly.

Michael Venner (06:24)

Yeah,

that's really good. Yeah, because a lot of people they'll go on like a lead auditor course, but it kind of teaches you the standard, which I suppose is month one in yours. yeah, they miss things like KPIs and like throughput yields and all that kind of stuff that is important. It really is important. Yeah. So, okay.

Beth Rhodes (06:28)

yet.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

It is. That's what

quality managers should be able to do for you. They should be able to drive efficiency within the business. They should be able to look at the structure that you've got and be able to go, how do we continuously improve that? How do we make that better? What can we do quicker, leaner, more efficiently? How can we reduce cost or time or money involved in that? And it's a really important element that

People don't really understand about quality management. It's not just about walking around with a clipboard and a tick list and say, yes, you have achieved that. Yes, you can do that. It's actually about how do we drive the business forward. And that's what Quality Practitioner is all about.

Michael Venner (07:23)

Right okay so is it for new people or can experienced people sort of attend?

Beth Rhodes (07:27)

You know what?

I've had learners from the ages of 16 to 63.

Michael Venner (07:32)

Wow.

Beth Rhodes (07:33)

And

if you're in the younger end of the category, you need some time, I think, to learn the business. Because if you're going to manage quality for someone, you need to understand how the business operates. So it's a slower growing process that you will go through. But then I've had group quality managers on it. And they've learned a huge amount about metrics and risk management and all of those really key skills doing failure mode effect analysis, doing measurement system analysis, and all those key little skills that

wouldn't have got anywhere else. So, you know, it really doesn't matter. It just matters that you want to learn how to continually improve your business. And that's what the whole core of the qualifications about, which of course links to the core of ISO 9001 . That is what ISO 9001 is So, yeah.

Michael Venner (08:12)

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah, it's 100%.

Yeah, the amount of companies I go to and I sort of mention FMEA or, and I guess get a blank look like, I've never heard of it. I'm like, okay, it's quite a, some standards, not, you know, it's quite integral really. Yeah.

Beth Rhodes (08:22)

Yeah. Yeah.

It really

is, you know, and being able to have someone in the business with those skills is so important. You know, we've had a lot of people come on the course that have started and quality's been a tack on.

to their full-time job that they have. Then by the end of the course, because the business have seen the value in having a quality practitioner, they've actually then created a new role for that person and they've gone into quality engineer or quality technician or quality coordinator or quality manager.

Michael Venner (08:42)

Yeah.

Beth Rhodes (08:58)

they brought another member of staff through to fill the production or engineering or manufacturing role that person was in. So, you know, it's kind of growing a culture is the whole idea of embedding quality rather than it being a tick box exercise, which is of course my least favourite thing in the world. You know what mean? When you turn up two weeks before an audit and everyone's panicking because no one's done anything for a year and you're like, not really the point in having a QMS. The point is that you maintain it

constantly so you don't have this worry. Doesn't matter that the auditor is coming in two weeks. You're ready because you have a quality manager. You've got a practitioner that looks after your system internally because it is embedded and it matters to you and to the customer.

Michael Venner (09:32)

That's it.

Yeah, I often wonder if we do spot checks on people. If we don't plan the audit, we don't tell anyone we're coming, we just rock up and ding dong, I'm here to do your audit. I just wonder what we're walk in to because yeah, panic before the audits and everyone's filling forms in, checking things over and things like that. I imagine it's quite a high percent to be honest.

Beth Rhodes (09:46)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

yeah,

it is. And one thing that me and Debbie are really passionate about at Clear Quality is making it not just a kite mark for somebody, making it a real quality management system that actually operates from the centre of the business outwards. And it's just intrinsically part of what they do rather than something that is maintained over here when required. Yeah. yeah, we saw you do.

Michael Venner (10:23)

Yeah, we notice and we can see the difference in the businesses

and you can tell when it's really embedded in and they're using it as they should be and day to day. Yeah, I can see it transforming businesses and you can always tell the difference.

Beth Rhodes (10:29)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Well, it really does. Yeah.

It just takes that little bit of time investment, which I know is the hard thing for a lot of companies because time is money, you know, but I believe you put the investment in, train yourself up a good quality manager, put them in place to manage it and you will see nothing but efficiency savings from that point onwards, especially if you invest in a little bit of lean and, you know, lean metrics and lean training as part of that.

Michael Venner (10:55)

Hmm.

So

how much time is it each month then? So it's 14 months, so how much?

Beth Rhodes (11:06)

So it's

an apprenticeship.

The government standard is 24 hours a month. So we break down that into little bite-sized chunks. So the lecture they'll attend will be four to six hours, and that will be on a fixed timetable that they'll have from day one. They'll then have things like self-guided learning, e-learning, assignments, et cetera, that are all broken down into bite-sized chunks. So the employer can, you know, if you're having a busy week, one week, you can make the hours up next week. You can do an hour a day. You could do half a day a week. But from the employer,

point of view with it being either funded by the government or funded by the levy, their investment is the time to allow that person to train and do it. If you do that right and you link it to what's live and what's happening in your general business as usual, actually what you can do is you can embed that time into their day-to-day activities. You know, make it valuable, use the time to create the quality management system, use each assignment as a chunk of that

Michael Venner (11:46)

Yeah. Okay.

Beth Rhodes (12:06)

system being built.

Michael Venner (12:06)

Got you.

so that they as part of their 24 hours, obviously some of it's for the lecture. They can actually use that time for actually writing the manual, writing policies, creating the KPIs. OK, so they're kind of learning as they're doing. OK.

Beth Rhodes (12:11)

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. 100%. Yeah. Absolutely. know, month number

one, we start them on the enterprise risk register.

So, you know, that's a basic start, overall business view to start with, with your steeple analysis, with your, you know, business and opportunity risks, with your KPIs, with your business objectives. So that's the first chunk is we start them working through that, then their interested parties register. They'll then do a supplier monitoring system. They'll then create change management processes and forms to go through. They'll then create their internal auditing schedule and system. So, you know, each

month is that chunk of putting it together and if you already have it then it's not about putting it together it's about taking what you've got, pulling it apart, analysing it, reviewing it based on what you've learned and then creating something better on the other end. So you know even if you have your system it's about how can we improve your system for you, how do we make it leaner, how do we make it more embedded in the core of what you do.

Michael Venner (13:18)

you

got you yeah so if you've got nothing you can implement something and if you've got something already there you can make it better yeah because there's always there's always room for improvement isn't there as we know you know

Beth Rhodes (13:20)

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. well, yeah.

And if you're to have 9001, that's basically what you're signing up to. You're signing up to be your own critical friend, to be able to look at what you do and say, OK, so yeah, we have done it like that for a while. But if we did it like this, we would save this much time or this much resource. If we could automate that process, if we could input a cleaner, leaner way of doing things. Because as organisations build, you start with your core processes in the middle, don't you? And then lots of different stuff happens and you tack on all these other

Michael Venner (13:34)

Mm.

Beth Rhodes (13:58)

processes and procedures on the edge of that and then five years in you're like actually maybe we need to go back to the core and streamline what we've done because we've tacked processes and procedures onto processes and procedures. So... Hmm, yeah.

Michael Venner (14:11)

No, you're 100 % because we do the same here. You know, we

put a system in at the start and as we grow and develop every now and then we do actually go back and just strip it and that's actually what we done last year. We kind of refocus the procedures and the processes, remap them, know, took things out, put bits in and you know, yeah, it's it's.

Beth Rhodes (14:22)

Hey.

Yeah.

For us, we started with a paper based system. So

when we started in apprenticeships, everything was a Word document that we sent out by a via DocuSign. And then now we have a fully portfolio, singing and dancing system that pumps everything out for us. So, you know, our processes had to evolve with that. Otherwise, you know, we they wouldn't be right anymore. You'd be telling someone to email out a form when actually you just got to load them up into the system and it will automatically trigger the workflows as they are supposed to go. So, yeah.

you

Michael Venner (15:01)

Got you, got you. So do you deliver the training yourself? Okay.

Beth Rhodes (15:04)

I do, I do. I

do have a whole team of trainers, but QP is my, it's my love. I always have one cohort. So I've just my last February 2023 cohort are all just finished their EPA at the moment. So, and then I will take probably another cohort around March time. Yeah.

Michael Venner (15:08)

Yeah.

Is it? Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, I still love auditing. I shouldn't be out so much, but I love it. So yeah, I'm always out.

Beth Rhodes (15:28)

Yeah.

I know I think that sometimes

as well when you're a leader, it's about always understanding what the challenges your staff face as well. I think if I moved away from not having any learners, I would miss that being in the thick of it kind of part. And I also love watching quality practitioners grow. Honestly, it's my little nest. Yeah.

Michael Venner (15:38)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, same. Yeah, I love seeing companies grow and develop and, know,

five years ago, there were sort of five people and then now there's sort of 20, 25, you know, and flying all over the place. Yeah, it is good. Oh dear.

Beth Rhodes (15:58)

Yeah.

We have a little graduation ceremony every year for our learners and I absolutely

love it. I'm like a little proud mum swanning around with all my little kids getting their certificates. It's lovely. Yeah.

Michael Venner (16:10)

Yeah, yeah, nice.

So what's your, what's your sort of favorite element then of over the 14 months?

Beth Rhodes (16:17)

Whoa,

okay, so everyone's least favourite element is measurement system analysis. I can promise you that. No one loves that bit, but it is a really valuable thing to learn. My favourite bit on delivery is internal auditing, definitely. It's my favourite. I've done it for years and I think it's such a...

Michael Venner (16:23)

Okay.

Okay, why is that?

Beth Rhodes (16:36)

about being a critical friend, not about being an overlord, if that's a good way of saying it. Sometimes I think that audits get this really negative persona put against them that some overlord is coming in to tell you what you do really badly and, you know, everyone's fearful and everyone's like, my God. But actually it should be a really positive process because it's about continuous improvement. And that's about how the auditor delivers the audit. That's up to us as auditors to put the people that we're auditing at ease.

Michael Venner (16:41)

Okay, yeah.

Tell your fit.

Beth Rhodes (17:06)

and to help them to improve and to take ownership of what they're doing, rather than putting everybody on the defensive immediately. And, you know, I mean, not really getting to, you know, understand the process and understand the improvements that you can make. I really like to, that bit I really like teaching because I think it's so important for the way we do it to be right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Michael Venner (17:27)

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, it's the way you approach it and treat people. You can't go into

godlike status and beating people with a stick. yeah, we see it all the time. Yeah.

Beth Rhodes (17:33)

Yes, I've had that before with auditors, you know.

Yeah, and it's so frustrating and that negativity that can be put upon an audit process when actually for us as an organisation to internally audit your own processes and procedures is amazing because you would, isn't it better to spot it yourself than to have it pointed out at an external audit? So it should be really positive, but because of the way that people are taught to do it, it's not always the positive experience that it should be.

Michael Venner (17:53)

yeah.

Yeah, yes.

And I think it's the same from external

waters as well, know, internal and external, but yeah, it's just the wrong approach sometimes. And you don't get the information out of people.

Beth Rhodes (18:07)

Nyan!

Mm-hmm.

It is. And then nerdily, my favourite bit,

yeah, is lead metrics in FMEA. I love a lead metric.

Michael Venner (18:18)

Yeah.

I

do kind of love metrics as well. I'm a of a data geek and we've got stuff all over the place in here and I love that because it tells you what it is and obviously a big part of ISO 9001 is making decisions on data, isn't it? So you need it.

Beth Rhodes (18:23)

Yeah, me too. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. As I always

say to them, if you can't see it, if you can't evidence it, it isn't real. you know, metrics are the best way most of the time in which you can do that. So, yeah. And I love seeing them go away with all the metrics that they've learned and then do the assignment where they've got to work out what's the best metrics for their organisation and then implement those metrics. And I always think that's really interesting to see what they pick and what they come back with at the end. Yeah.

Michael Venner (18:59)

Yeah, I bet it is. Yeah,

because we're not so much in ISO 9001 but in aerospace scheme, there's a lot of metrics. And the things that people present to us sometimes, it makes no sense. It's not measuring anything. You've just picked an easy thing. yeah, we could get that. But it tells them nothing. And often it's looking at the wrong data points and things like that. yeah. So I can see how that'd be a very valuable lesson that month.

Beth Rhodes (19:06)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Hell yeah. It's like...

Yep.

Absolutely, I love teaching. Lean metrics is my favourite to teach, definitely. Auditing, I just love the embedding of the skill that you need as a human being to do that job. And then FMEA, who doesn't love an FMEA? And for anyone who doesn't know what an FMEA is, while we talk about this, it's a failure mode effect analysis. Yes, yeah, I'm a big fan. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Venner (19:26)

Yeah.

Go on.

That's it. So do you do process ones as well? Yeah, so you look at the process

as well as the product.

Beth Rhodes (19:49)

It depends, yeah, it

depends on the learner really. It depends whether they're in a process-led role or in a design-based role. We get both in quality, you know. We've had guys on the course from people who build bikes to people who design zoos to people who run HR companies. You know, we get all sorts because quality doesn't matter what industry you're in. Quality management is intrinsic to customer satisfaction.

Michael Venner (19:55)

Okay.

Yeah, I was gonna ask that actually because obviously

it's kind of heavily manufacturing but you get quite a few different sectors obviously by the sound of it.

Beth Rhodes (20:20)

yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and I

have different tutors as well depending on different groups. So, you know, I've got one tutor who's very specifically quality within engineering, manufacturing and production. But then you've got me and I'm very specifically quality and kind of more the education and ISO side of things. And then you've got my other tutor in it and he spent 25 years in the care industry. So he's very much CQC quality and that kind of stuff. you know, between us, we move people

Michael Venner (20:31)

Okay

Beth Rhodes (20:50)

around depending on who the right human is for them to get the context of the qualification because that's really important. Yeah.

Michael Venner (20:55)

Got you. Okay.

So does the tutor stay with them throughout that journey of the 14th? Yeah, so you don't swap them around mid or anything.

Beth Rhodes (21:00)

yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Occasionally

I have someone come in and do a guest lecture. In data protection we have that because there's some really very, very technical modules in data protection. But for QP, no, the tutors will hold them for the whole time.

Michael Venner (21:05)

Yeah.

Yeah, got you. Okay. So you say MSA is kind of people's worst bit. How can you convince someone that it's a great thing then?

Beth Rhodes (21:20)

Of course.

You get them to do it. I make them actually do it. Yeah. It's a mandatory and distinction element of the end point assessment. So if they want a distinction at the end, they need to carry out an MSA as part of their final project. So, you know, most people, because they want the distinction at the end, they are going to work with you to find a way to do a measurable and valuable MSA. It's not always easy if you're not in production and engineering. Yeah.

Michael Venner (21:25)

Just get them yeah.

I was just going to say that, yeah, it could be tricky.

Beth Rhodes (21:51)

You could

do a linear or you could do a binary or you could do it over time MSA. So it's about just kind of sitting with the learner and spending a little bit of time working out what the best way to do that is. And then the module gives them practice. But it is the one module that I am mean to all learners and make them all attend live, because I think it's one of those modules where you need to be with a tutor to ask questions, not watch it back on a video because it is very technical in its concept.

Michael Venner (22:18)

Yeah,

yeah and I suppose you can engage if someone's getting it and then if not give them more support.

Beth Rhodes (22:22)

Hmm. It was really struggling, yeah. And you do,

you know, it's not an easy subject to do, MSA, but it is. Everybody always walks out at the end going, well, that was difficult, but I have learned something, so. Yeah. Yeah, exactly that.

Michael Venner (22:33)

It was a challenge but we got there in the end. It's like some audits. So

do they have to come on site for that or is it all done sort of virtually? Okay.

Beth Rhodes (22:44)

It's all done virtually, but we do

visit learners on site quite often. You know, I've been out and done actual MSA exercises with people when needed. You know, we've had certain areas and learners where, you know, they need that little bit of additional support. And at that point, yes, of course, we will go and spend some time with them on it, because, you know, if somebody's at distinction level for everything else in their portfolio, but this is the one thing that they're a little bit stuck on, then yes, we're absolutely going to provide them with that support to get it right.

I'm going say get it right on the night, but that just sounded weird.

Michael Venner (23:18)

That was a TV show wasn't it? it? Yeah what was that? This must have been an old one. We're showing it. I was going to say we're showing our age now. It'll be alright in the night. Yeah what was that? That's going to bug me now. It'll come to me later.

Beth Rhodes (23:20)

It was, yeah. I don't know which one either, but it just popped in my head. my age.

I feel

like it was Matthew Kelly, you know.

Michael Venner (23:35)

think you might be right actually. Yeah, you might be right. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Make sure you message me. Okay. It sounds really interesting actually. And you mentioned about supply chain as well. I think that's something a lot of people don't do right. Obviously it's important for some companies, not for others, but some of the ones I go to, which they just buy everything. You know, everything's bought in and they're just assemblers, things like that.

Beth Rhodes (23:36)

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to Google it when we're finished. Yeah.

This one.

Yeah, I know it is.

Yeah.

Michael Venner (24:01)

I don't think they do that well enough in some cases.

Beth Rhodes (24:04)

Absolutely and we

do the assignment we do for that one's all about doing like a balanced scorecard so all about actually testing your supply chain and making sure that it's meeting its SLAs and its contractual agreements with you because I do think people just get trapped in the that's the best price.

Michael Venner (24:10)

Yeah, perfect.

Yeah.

Beth Rhodes (24:22)

And while that's the

best price is lovely, at the end of the day, is that the best service you can offer your customer at the other end? Because it was consistently late, if it's consistently damaged, if it's consistently missing stuff, then you are having to go back and that is then affecting your customer relationships and they will eventually go somewhere else. Absolutely, yeah.

Michael Venner (24:40)

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And it has a knock on impact onto your own on time delivery and performance. And yeah, because

like you say, a lot of people maybe look at on time delivery and look at quality and they say, that's okay. But then they're always missing the paperwork. They're always chasing things. They don't get communication. It's, you know, the price might be cheap and they put up with it. It's like, yeah, but it's not the best thing always.

Beth Rhodes (24:49)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's not, no. And I think your customer would rather probably that you put your price up a little bit to get a more consistent supplier than they would sit there constantly having everything be delayed, everything be late, everything be not as their contract is agreed to be. So yeah.

Michael Venner (25:15)

Yeah.

Yeah,

I've seen some companies that have great on time delivery themselves, know, 98, 99 % and their suppliers are sort of 40%. And there's like, so they're saying, right, well, to combat their bad performance, we just order it a lot earlier. We put a month earlier. I'm like, yeah, but that's your cash flow. And like, yeah, I know, but yeah.

Beth Rhodes (25:35)

Yeah. Yep.

Yep, and your workspace utilisation because you're

using a massive chunk of your space to store stuff that you don't actually know that you've sold yet. Why are we buying stuff we don't know that we're selling? Yeah.

Michael Venner (25:48)

Yeah, it's just in case. Yeah, yeah,

just to allow for that really late deliveries and things like that. I'm like, it's crazy.

Beth Rhodes (25:56)

Yeah, it is

crazy. And that supply chain is the reason people get forced into that. I don't know if you've ever read a book called Two Second Lean? OK, so if you check it out online, it's by a guy called Paul Akers. And my god, he is so clever. And what he did with his organisation using Lean, using workspace utilization, using overall equipment effectiveness is really interesting. Yeah.

Michael Venner (26:06)

No, don't think I have actually.

Okay, what's it called

two-second Okay, yeah, I've read a lot of lean books, yeah, I haven't heard of that one, so I'll go with... Yeah.

Beth Rhodes (26:23)

Two second lean. Yeah, yeah. Well, he's like super American and everything, he's,

I just, you know, and he applies it to home as well as he applies it to work. So he applies it to all those chores that his wife sets him to do, like mowing the lawn or cleaning the car or all of those. How can he make each activity that he does in his day two seconds quicker?

Michael Venner (26:35)

Okay.

Got you, okay.

Beth Rhodes (26:46)

And it's so

interesting to think. then you think and you sit and you look at your own business and you're like, hmm, how do I make that task two seconds faster? And then you think about how many tasks do I do in a day? And how many tasks do have do in a day? So how many two seconds could I save throughout a day? And then you start thinking, OK, actually, that could really add up time wise. Yeah. So, yeah.

Michael Venner (26:59)

and compound it.

Hmm. Okay. Yeah. Got you. Yeah.

That's it's kind of the same principle. Obviously I know what lean is, but where sportsmen make the tiny incremental improvements and Toto Wolf in Mercedes Formula One, he famously said, just make tiny increments in every area, compound it and we'll win. And obviously they did. They were very successful. So yeah. Okay. I'll look that up. Look that book.

Beth Rhodes (27:17)

Good.

Yep. Yep.

How many tiny increments yet?

Yeah, you should. And then you'll

go around and when you get home, you'll be like, so how do I do this task two seconds quicker? No, no, no, just making them faster. Yeah. But did you notice there how you managed to come off this call with homework?

Michael Venner (27:38)

Yeah is there a way getting out of the chores? Is there a book on how to get out of the chores? No okay just make it quicker okay.

I usually do to be honest. I'll be straight on that afterwards buying that. Yeah.

Beth Rhodes (27:50)

The talent is mine. No one ever gets out without any homework. It's a fact. Good kid. It

does an audiobook of it. That's how I've read it, because I've put it on in the car and stuff. It's just a really interesting read, and it really makes you think about, OK, so how do I do stuff, and how can I apply that in my workplace and in my home life?

Michael Venner (28:01)

Okay.

Hmm, okay. So do you give lots of tips like that during the practitioner course? You know, books, go read this and

Beth Rhodes (28:15)

yeah. yeah, they all

have to read the audio or listen to the audiobook. I've got it embedded. Sorry, Paul.

Michael Venner (28:20)

Okay, yeah,

I was going to say you're on commission. Yeah, great. No, I'll look that up. I think that's where a lot of value comes from going on these courses and things like that is you get those little tidbits from people that have got the experience and the knowledge that, you know, can totally transform you. And I think that's where the beauty can be from audits as well is you're getting someone in that's experienced and knowledgeable and they're trying to share that knowledge with you.

Beth Rhodes (28:25)

No, technically not, but I would love to be.

Hmm?

Yep.

Michael Venner (28:48)

You know, it's I think I find we've got our internal audit next week, actually. you know, yeah, yeah, two people beating me up. but it's.

Beth Rhodes (28:53)

I'll have you.

I hope not. I hope they're going to treat

you like a lovely friend and they're just going to help you make it better.

Michael Venner (29:01)

Well

yeah, but like I say, we get value from it. It is important and some people wonder if we actually do it and we do. We actually get external people in. There's no point us doing it ourselves because we're probably a bit blind to it and things like that.

Beth Rhodes (29:15)

Yeah, it's a level

of bias, isn't it? You can't help but be biased against something that you create and you love and you do all day, every day. So the best thing you can do with internal audits is get an external party that comes in, you know, not to tell you everything's terrible, but to highlight where you can improve and what an auditor might flag up as a minor or major nonconformance on the day.

Michael Venner (29:20)

camera.

Yeah, definitely. So

obviously the Practitioner Course Apprenticeship Programme. you said there's funding for that? Government funding and levy? How does that work?

Beth Rhodes (29:44)

Yes, so.

Yeah, so the apprenticeship levy is a tax that all companies who have over a three and a half million pound wage bill will naturally pay. It will then sit in what's called their digital apprenticeship service account, their DAS account, as we call it. And they can, any of those companies can just use that money to pay for the apprenticeship standard. If your wage bill is less than that and you're what we call an SME or a non-levy organisation, then the government will pay 95%.

of the overall cost and then you will be required to put a five percent contribution which for quality practitioner I think is three hundred pounds. Yeah and you can pay that over 14 months you know you pay a little chunk every month you don't have to pay the three hundred pounds even up front you can pay 25 pound a month for 14 months for it. The investment from the employer is always that time. Yeah.

Michael Venner (30:17)

Ryan.

Wow, that's nothing, is it?

really?

So I

could basically put, because I guess we could put our auditors on it, couldn't I really? So I could put someone on it and pay £300 and the rest of it's all funded. Okay, I'll just go provide them a bit of time obviously to do the...

Beth Rhodes (30:45)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, the

time, yeah, absolutely. That's the commitment that the employer makes to the courses, giving them the time to grow and implement and learn the skills they need to learn.

Michael Venner (31:05)

Wow, that's incredible really. I mean you don't get...

Beth Rhodes (31:07)

Hmm, apprenticeships are amazing. I'm a product

of them. I never went to university. I didn't do all of that jazz. I came out of school at 16, got my first full-time waitressing job, worked my way up to restaurant manager, and then randomly in my 20s decided that I never wanted to serve for anyone food ever again. So, somehow ended up here 20 years later than that. So...

Michael Venner (31:12)

Okay.

I think we all

fall into this kind of career, don't we? The quality kind of career. you sort of, how do I get in this? Yeah.

Beth Rhodes (31:34)

Yeah, yeah, it just kind of happened.

Yeah, where did I get here from? But I love teaching

and I've seen hundreds of apprentices over the years make something amazing of themselves and you know, often they are the people that, you know, people thought would never really go anywhere or do anything, you know, back in the day when it was everyone should go to uni. But, you know, I've seen amazing girls go into the workplace at 16 years old as business admin level two apprentices and are now, you know, part of the senior leadership team.

at 30, you know what I mean? And doing amazing for themselves. It's such a positive thing to do if it's the right route for you. It was for me. So I have too many apprenticeships under my belt to talk about. It's going to show my age way too much. Yeah, over the years. Yeah, I've done a few. Yeah.

Michael Venner (32:10)

Mm, mm.

Yeah. So you've got quite a few of you. Yeah. Okay.

What if it's all funded you know, 95 % funded. It's mad not to really isn't it?

Beth Rhodes (32:31)

Yeah,

you know, especially when you're with the bigger companies and it's basically 100 % funded because they have to pay the tax anyway. The tax is not optional. So if you don't spend what's in your levy account, you're just giving that money back to the government.

So, you one of the other things we try and do a lot and we work with the South Yorkshire Apprenticeship Hub on is if you're a big company and you can't use your levy, if you can't use that money, then share it with smaller companies that can. You you're allowed, you're legally allowed to share it. So share that with smaller SMEs, your local businesses around you and let them grow their workforces with young.

Michael Venner (33:06)

So how do they do that then?

How does that work? Okay.

Beth Rhodes (33:08)

Yes, it's called matching service. So

you can let the South Yorkshire Apprenticeship Hub know that you've got, you know, this much in funding and you're not able to use it. And then they can find apprentices for smaller SME companies. And then you just transfer over those levy funds. So rather than going back to the government, because 24 months after they hit your account, if you've not used it, they're gone. Yeah, you lose it. But you can start with it.

Michael Venner (33:26)

fantastic.

you lose it. Okay, so

it could help the larger organisations with their ESG.

Beth Rhodes (33:39)

absolutely. Yeah, and we really promote

that. know, we've been with the South Yorkshire Apprenticeship Hub. We've been working with Aviva. We've been working with Google. We've got loads of matches for different organisations in Sheffield and Barnsley and Rotherham. And it really helps the smaller companies. I know the contribution isn't massive, but for some smaller companies, it is the, you know, the difference between yes, I can afford to do this and no, I can't afford to do this. So if we can get them a levy match fund, then, you know,

Michael Venner (34:05)

Yeah, yeah.

Beth Rhodes (34:09)

is simply time that they have to give us. And time is the one thing that they could resource.

Michael Venner (34:11)

Mmm.

Yeah,

definitely. It's kind of a no-brainer, isn't it, really? So you're getting a lot of people... So you're getting a lot of people sort of take up the programme, you?

Beth Rhodes (34:18)

Hmm, I think so, definitely, but you know, that's my advice.

yeah, so I think at the moment, I'll tell you exactly off the top of my head, but we have 260 learners across our eight apprenticeship programmes and we've had over a hundred complete now in full. We've only been a training provider for three years. So, you know, with the programmes being between 14 and 20 months, it takes a while to see that coming through at the other end. But yeah, we are starting to see the, you know, real results of what we've been doing.

Michael Venner (34:56)

Hmm,

Beth Rhodes (34:56)

Thank

Michael Venner (34:57)

yes, fantastic. okay. So how can someone sort of get on the program then? What's the best method for them? So if I'm a client or if I've got clients that want to sort of join and say, yeah, I'll put someone on the quality practitioner course, how do they go about that?

Beth Rhodes (35:03)

I don't

So they can just give me a shout at my ClearQuality. The website is clearquality.co.uk or you can give us a call on 017 09 918 501 or you can email us at training at clearquality.co.uk and we can support you to find match funds. We can support you to do skill scans and look at what the right skills for your business are. We're not going to drive you down a route that you don't need to go on for us. It's all about

valuable learning. needs to be valuable to the employer and most importantly the learner needs to want to be there. You know.

Michael Venner (35:47)

Yeah, you can't drag someone along to it.

Beth Rhodes (35:51)

And we get that, we do get that, of course

we do. But for us, it's so important that everybody is invested in what we're doing. And the same as if you're going to put ISO 9001 in your business, be invested in putting it in your business. Don't think of it as a little stamp that's going to go on a certificate that's going to get you a tender. You need to think about it as this is a new culture and a new ethos for our business. And Quality Practitioner is the way to train yourself, someone to support that for you.

Michael Venner (36:19)

Yeah, yeah, okay, that sounds good. Sounds good. Okay, so is there a test at the end? Because I hate tests, everyone hates tests, but okay.

Beth Rhodes (36:26)

yeah. No, it's not an exam, though. It's not an exam on quality of practitioner.

You run an improvement project. So you get 20 weeks. You get to pick your scope and you have to take some metrics within your organisation and you have to show improvement through running a project. You'll also have...

Michael Venner (36:43)

Right, okay, so there's no exams,

so don't have to go into an exam environment or anything. Okay, because I hate exams.

Beth Rhodes (36:47)

No, no, no, no. It's all

about you showcasing competency. That's what apprenticeships are. They're vocational. They're about you showcasing your ability to do that job. So, yeah, yeah.

Michael Venner (36:57)

So they basically just do the project over the 14 months and

then present this is what I've learned and this what I created.

Beth Rhodes (37:03)

Yeah, so each

month you'll do an assignment that creates what's called your portfolio of evidence. That is you showcasing your competency as a quality practitioner, which you go into your end point assessment. You'll have a 60 minute discussion over that. You'll then agree your project scope that you're going to run and you've got 20 weeks then to run your project, deliver your project, write a report on your project and present that back to your end point assessor. So it comes in two parts and each each part of that end point assessment is worth 50 percent.

Michael Venner (37:32)

Yeah, okay, that sounds really good. I might sign up myself. If I had the time, I honestly would, because it's...

Beth Rhodes (37:37)

you're very welcome.

Next cohort's on the 19th. You've got six days still. No, it really isn't. It's about thinking about how can I continually improve what I do? And if that's what your core as an organisation is, then you should have somebody in the quality practitioner role. You should be looking at how do I develop that area?

Michael Venner (37:44)

Yeah, six days, I better get in quick. If I had the time, it sounds fantastic.

So have you actually seen it transform businesses? That's all. Yes, obviously you see people develop, but you've seen. OK.

Beth Rhodes (38:06)

yeah.

I've seen some absolutely incredible EPA projects

happen that have saved companies millions of pounds. And that's not me, you know, shouting about it. I can't say company names, of course, but yeah. But I have seen some incredible projects. One of my learners this year, he did possibly one of the best projects I've ever seen and said the EPA had ever seen as well. And, you know, just so proud to watch him go from, you know, I mean, having

Michael Venner (38:19)

Yeah, of course.

Beth Rhodes (38:36)

very little experience in quality to delivering one of the best EPA projects that I've ever gone through and you know he had every metric under the sun in there and he did continuous improvement on all of them and it was quite special to see.

Michael Venner (38:52)

Yeah, and then the company's obviously benefited and cost savings or improvements.

Beth Rhodes (38:54)

Of course, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, well, he's brought in what was a service that they outsourced. So they outsourced it to a third party supplier. He's now brought that in-house using metrics and costings, et cetera, to do that. And the results are that they now save millions in time and money by not having to use an external supplier to create that particular part for them.

Michael Venner (39:01)

Okay.

Wow. Obviously

the company had to support them in that decision or they had to present that.

Beth Rhodes (39:26)

yeah, yeah. But that's what the project's about, isn't it? It's about justification.

You have to go away and research and justify and do all of the metrics and, you know, design what's going to happen next and do your failure mode effect analysis and run your measurement system analysis to justify and prove that the change you want to make is going to be valuable for the business.

Michael Venner (39:48)

Wow,

yeah, so they obviously supported it and went with it and they put a lot of faith in that.

Beth Rhodes (39:52)

Yeah, yeah,

yeah. And a lot of companies do, you know, because it's the one moment they, you know, they've got to give the learner the time to do the project. So why not make the project super valuable? You know, I mean, a simulated project is never what we want. We want real, we want live, we want, you know, valuable to everybody projects. And they're the best ones we see come out the other end.

Michael Venner (40:02)

Yeah.

Hmm, yeah,

again, I guess it's not ones that play lip service to it, is it? Yeah.

Beth Rhodes (40:17)

Yeah, precisely. It's about really

getting stuck in and going, what can I improve?

Michael Venner (40:22)

Yeah, fantastic. Okay, this has been a real eye-opener for me and I'm definitely going to be mentioning it to some people. I think it'd be valuable. Yeah, I know I've mentioned it to a few and I don't know if anything happened to them, but I know I've put a few your way that sounded interesting to people. yeah, hopefully this helps as well. Definitely open my eyes up.

Beth Rhodes (40:30)

Please do, please do. Very available chance.

have.

I think people think of apprenticeships as being for 16 year olds and they're just not. They're actually way more valuable for somebody who's been in their career for a while and is looking to take that next step and progress and do, you know what I mean, take a step up from where they are. And that really what the level four apprenticeships are for because you've got to have a certain level of experience to be able to go on that level in the first place.

Michael Venner (40:46)

Mmm. Mmm.

Mm.

Yeah, definitely. Brilliant. Fantastic. Is there anything else you wanted to add? Before we leave? No? All good. I'll put all the things in the show notes, links to your website and put your phone number and LinkedIn and things like that. So, yeah, it's been great. Really appreciate your time. Great. Thanks a lot, Beth.

Beth Rhodes (41:12)

No, no, I'm good. No, all good. been a pleasure.

thank you for having me.