ISO 14001 & 45001: Navigating Compliance Like a Pro

Summary

In this podcast episode, Michael Venner and Paula Brady discuss the importance of understanding and complying with legislation related to ISO standards, particularly ISO 14001 and ISO 45001. They explore the challenges businesses face in staying compliant with environmental and health and safety regulations, the significance of internal audits, and the need for effective risk management. Real-world examples illustrate the consequences of non-compliance, while practical advice is provided on identifying applicable legislation and managing compliance effectively.

Takeaways

• Legislation forms a huge part of managing ISO standards.
• Many companies are unaware of their environmental compliance obligations.
• Health and safety legislation is more well-known than environmental legislation.
• ISO 14001 is a key tool for demonstrating environmental commitment.
• Companies must be proactive in understanding applicable legislation.
• Documentation and evidence are crucial for compliance checks.
• Regular compliance evaluations can prevent legal issues.
• Internal audits help identify compliance gaps before enforcement actions occur.
• Businesses should streamline their processes for managing legislation.
• Awareness of legal responsibilities is essential for all organisations.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Legislation and Compliance

01:36 Understanding Health and Safety vs Environmental Legislation

05:05 The Growing Importance of Environmental Compliance

07:59 Real-World Implications of Non-Compliance

10:43 Identifying Applicable Legislation

16:19 Managing Compliance and Documentation

20:21 Waste Management Responsibilities and Liabilities

23:08 Council Waste Collection and Documentation Requirements

25:11 Evaluating Compliance and Risk Management

27:24 The Importance of Internal Audits

29:26 Understanding Compliance Checks and Legislation

31:11 The Risks of Non-Compliance

34:51 Health and Safety Executive Visits and Compliance

36:58 Benefits of Environmental Management Systems

38:51 Keeping Up with Legislation Changes

41:51 Mitigating Risks through Compliance Awareness

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Legislation and Compliance
• 1:36 Understanding Health and Safety vs Environmental Legislation
• 5:05 The Growing Importance of Environmental Compliance
• 7:59 Real-World Implications of Non-Compliance
• 10:43 Identifying Applicable Legislation
• 16:19 Managing Compliance and Documentation
• 20:21 Waste Management Responsibilities and Liabilities
• 23:08 Council Waste Collection and Documentation Requirements
• 25:11 Evaluating Compliance and Risk Management
• 27:24 The Importance of Internal Audits
• 29:26 Understanding Compliance Checks and Legislation
• 31:11 The Risks of Non-Compliance
• 34:51 Health and Safety Executive Visits and Compliance
• 36:58 Benefits of Environmental Management Systems
• 38:51 Keeping Up with Legislation Changes
• 41:51 Mitigating Risks through Compliance Awareness

Transcript

Michael Venner (00:16)

welcome everybody to the next podcast we are joined by Paula Brady our Chief Operating Officer for NI and Republic of Ireland isn't it

Northern Ireland Republic of Ireland. Okay and then today we're going to be talking about legislation, how to keep up to date, what you should be doing to manage it and all the other things around it. suppose focusing on ISO 14001 isn't it? say ISO 14001, ISO 45001 mostly, but obviously it does impact general legislation as well.

Paula Brady (00:31)

Yep.

Yeah, I'm 45001. Yeah.

Michael Venner (00:55)

related to your business. Paula, we need to introduce yourself as you've been on it before? suppose give a little bit of a rundown I suppose.

Paula Brady (01:05)

Yeah, as Mike had said, I'm COO of Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland, managing the client base and I do  audit quite a bit as well. So keeping my ear to the ground and knowing what's going on out there. So legislation forms a huge part of that, especially when most companies go for all three standards. So not just quality, but their health, safety and environmental as well.

Michael Venner (01:30)

I quite a few people struggle with the legislation part don't they really I think.

Paula Brady (01:36)

I think it's a bit of

an enigma, You know, they're like, yeah, they see it in the standards and it's a clause there and they go, yeah, but we're compliant with everything we need to be without really giving it the time and energy that it needs because there's such a raft of legislation out there and it's about understanding what's applicable to you and then how you go about making sure you're compliant to it.

and I'm sure you've come across this too, that most companies, so health and safety legislation is much more well known than maybe environmental legislation is. So you get that a lot of companies will already be compliant with quite a bit of their health and safety requirements and not so much, always say the ones who have went for ISO 14001 get a bit of a shock because they're suddenly made aware of all of this environmental legislation that maybe they didn't know of before yet.

standards are not standards, you're supposed to be compliant with it. And I think it's getting that through to quite a few of the companies is the difficult thing that even if they didn't go for their ISO standards, these things are still a requirement for your business.

Michael Venner (02:43)

That is true actually, because whether you're getting certified to ISO 14001 or 45001 or any standard really, you've still got to be legally compliant, you? You can still be prosecuted. Yeah, that's a point.

Paula Brady (02:55)

Absolutely.

think it's probably the oversight for environmental legislation isn't quite there the way it is for health and safety. In the fact that your government bodies, your health and safety executive have quite an enforcement or a resource there to go out to businesses to check in that they are being compliant and the environment agency probably doesn't have quite the same level of resource to do that. They tend only getting involved when there's a complaint made.

or something is very evident. So I think that has put it sort of into the shadows a little bit and the companies aren't aware as much. So it is the one that I would get asked most about when we're out doing the audits and we're looking for the evidence to show that a company's compliant. Honestly, companies just had no awareness at all that in and around waste legislation in particular.

there's quite a requirement there of the documentation you should hold, how long you have to hold it for and sort of how you check that the suppliers that you're using are licensed to do what you're asking them to do.

Michael Venner (03:57)

So why do you think they're not as highly regulated? you think it's because health and safety is more related to people can die, people's health and things like that and environmental people tend not to die? suppose. Yeah.

Paula Brady (04:10)

Well, it depends too, but yeah, absolutely.

There's a much more awareness, health and safety legislation, prosecutions, you know, if there's a death in a business or something caused by an accident, there's quite a public awareness around that. And so probably health and safety executives have a bigger remit to ensure compliance. They have a bigger enforcement team who are sort of set out to go and visit.

businesses to make them aware of their legal responsibilities and to check that they're sort of meeting those. Environmentally, my guess is it's probably going to grow. So the environment is sort of the next big thing. It's what more and more businesses are being asked to demonstrate their compliance to and that they're committed to sort of protecting the environment and preventing pollution, which are the two big statements in your environmental policy.

So yeah, I can see it becoming more so.

Michael Venner (05:10)

Yeah, do. There's not many clients we get quotes for now that only want ISO 9001 They're generally always nine and fourteen. Yeah, it's probably is because of that ESG and sustainability and environmental concerns coming out. I bet you that's a big factor in it.

Paula Brady (05:25)

It

absolutely is. It's kind of the first step for a lot of businesses now to demonstrate that ESG commitment that they're aware of, you know, the sort of what's going on out there and that they have to now put their money where their mouth is and then show kind of that they're making steps to be more environmentally friendly to have considered their impact on the environment. And ISO 14001 is kind of one of the best initial steps to do that. In fact, companies are now searching for

additional standards that sit in around that sustainability piece like energy management and business continuity and there's quite a bit going on out there but when I get asked that I said look your ISO 14001 should be your main tool to demonstrate that you have identified where you might impact the environment and you're controlling it and a lot of that control is based in around legislations and then that compliance check.

So if we go back to the black and white of the standard, sort of says an organisation should be aware of its compliance obligations. And that's across the board. That can be legislations, but it can also be if you have membership of professional bodies or your ISO standards, that sort of what do I need to comply with as a business operating in the industry I'm operating in. The second step is the most critical. Be aware of it, but then demonstrate how you are compliant.

to what's relevant. And that's where a lot of businesses get confused, or not confused, aren't aware of what it takes to demonstrate that compliance? So they'll just say, yeah, we're compliant. Great, but how do you know you're compliant? What have you looked at to demonstrate? So it's nearly like an internal audit. In fact, if you do a really good compliance check, have most of your internal audit done on an operational sense.

and the fact that you're your check-in.

Michael Venner (07:15)

Do think that's

because they're not aware of the legislation fully and what's required? is it bit naivety on what's needed? Why are people like, yeah we're compliant but they don't demonstrate it? Why do you think that is?

Paula Brady (07:31)

think it's a lack of understanding of the bones of the legislation and the fact that they need to have proper evidence on these things to demonstrate compliance because worst case scenario in health and safety or environmental, if you've broken the law, if you're not compliant and have caused an issue, you're going to get prosecuted for it. You know, there was a story from a client from years back and it sort of back to that environmental and

agency and not having the oversight they had a complaint from a neighbour and because they were burning rubbish on a Saturday afternoon their yard man was they weren't they weren't aware of it at the time Saturday is fine so this smoke had annoyed a neighbour and the neighbour had called the environment agency but they'd come in and actually when they come into the business

Michael Venner (08:13)

That's alright, it's Saturday. Well, it's outside of work hours!

Paula Brady (08:28)

the environment agency done quite a thorough check and found a number of areas in which the business were breaching legislation. Now they were doing a great thing, they were actually donating windows and doors to charity but they weren't allowed to do it because you weren't allowed to store the waste at an area that it wasn't created and you weren't allowed to hand over what was that designated as waste to another organisation and they prosecuted them for it. Yeah.

Michael Venner (08:54)

really

Paula Brady (08:57)

So.

Michael Venner (08:58)

Why? they weren't

registered as a waste transfer station basically.

Paula Brady (09:02)

So yeah, it's slightly, the laws in Northern Ireland are slightly different to England in the fact that you're not allowed to any waste if it's somewhere where it hasn't been produced. So I think in England there's a bit of a leeway, there's a certain tonnage amount that you're allowed to bring back and hold until it's disposed off legally. Here there's not, and that's what they applied in the fact that as soon as those doors and windows were removed from the place where they have been installed,

Michael Venner (09:16)

Yeah.

Paula Brady (09:29)

they were designated as waste. So the company had a waste carrier's license, which was fine, but they came back and held them until they had enough to donate to a charity. It was an illegal movement of waste.

Michael Venner (09:41)

Like I said, they're doing a good thing and really not putting it into the waste stream. Putting it into the ground or burning it. doing a good thing and getting themselves in trouble. Right, that's interesting. Okay, yeah.

Paula Brady (09:48)

exactly doing a good thing.

Yeah, it's not the only story

that I have like that, but that's where you need to be aware of what those laws actually say and what you're allowed and not allowed to do. You know, there's things like exemptions to waste management licensing in Northern Ireland in particular that they're called simple exemptions where you are doing things like that. You just apply to the Environment Agency and ask for a simple exemption to hold that waste until you have sufficient quantities to allow the movement.

Michael Venner (10:03)

Hmm.

Paula Brady (10:21)

But it's being aware of that and we find quite a lot of organisations aren't aware of it. And you kind of say, is it because of the resources there? But you know the same goes for your health and safety being really clued up on what's required takes a bit of work.

Michael Venner (10:27)

Okay.

So how does someone go about identifying the legislation then that's applicable to them?

Paula Brady (10:43)

Yeah, that's a million dollar question, Mike, that one. But...

Michael Venner (10:47)

I would say it's different I suppose

because it's probably slightly different over there than it is over here. There's OSHA in America. There's a slightly different over there.

Paula Brady (10:53)

Yeah.

It's straightforward enough. The government have their legislation websites and you can go on. They're all quite searchable. HSE are a really good resource. HSE NI I actually have a legislation tab on their website and that will list all the relevant health and safety legislations to a variety of industries, both primary and subordinate.

legislations that you can go and check and they keep those updated obviously as there's any changes which is a good resource. We're very fortunate in Northern Ireland we still have a website called Netregs that operates now it's UK wide but Northern Irish and Scottish legislation are the only two that are still live on it.

Michael Venner (11:38)

It was a nightmare when they stopped doing that for England. was brilliant resource, great tool. And I can't believe they got rid of it to be honest. Well, got rid of it over here. It's criminal.

Paula Brady (11:43)

me isn't too.

Yeah, I can't believe

it. You know, it seemed like quite a simple thing to keep running and especially as Northern Irish and Scottish legislation remains up and live on it. It's my go-to source. I actually subscribe to an email that comes in monthly that informs you of any upcoming legislation changes and anything that has just come into play or is about to come into play.

and it'll actually give you the breakdown of who it's relevant to and what sort of changes have been made. If there's amendments, which, you know, that's the difficult thing. Legislation is tricky in the amendments and updates and changes and whether it's applicable to what you do and whether it's not. So.

Michael Venner (12:30)

If I've got construction company though, so I go to Netregs or HSE website, how do I actually know how to sift through to identify what's actually applicable? there's reams and reams and reams of legislation. How do I know what ones are applicable to my business and what ones I can ignore?

Paula Brady (12:32)

Cool.

Yeah, those actual websites have really good search fields in them and you can say and a lot of help topics. So you can put in construction industry on the HSE website and it will give you sort of a whole synopsis of the relevant kind of areas and then the legislation is broke down within those. with a wee bit of research, can do that. Netregs absolutely still does for all industries. You can put in your industry type.

and it'll give you sort of a whole set of guidances relevant to your industry and give you suggestions and kind of prompt you to ask questions of what do I do as a business? You know, what could potentially impact the environment? And are there legislations in and around this? So, you know, do we store chemicals? Do we sell chemicals? You know, do we have waste streams? Do we have hazardous waste streams? But even that, organizations knowing what's a hazardous waste and what's...

just to control waste can be quite tough.

Michael Venner (13:48)

Yeah, so we haven't got Netregs here. So the environmental bit is quite tricky and we have well, yeah, it's basically stopped it. We got it. But yeah, we got it. But it's it's not very helpful. So we get a lot of clients that will say, well, how do I go about finding it? HSE is easy. Yeah, go on the HSE website. Environmental is a lot trickier and it takes a lot more time to sift through everything and identify what's applicable to you. Yeah.

Paula Brady (13:52)

Okay. I thought you still had it as resource, just not the legislation.

So really

is it just for England and Wales, is it just going through the government legislation sites?

Michael Venner (14:23)

a lot

unfortunately a lot of it is and it can be a challenge can be a challenge so if you don't know what you're looking at yeah it takes a lot of research really googling it guess you could possibly

Paula Brady (14:33)

it's reading legislation

is a task in itself and sort of getting to the point, which is why a lot of those websites are really good because they sort of break it down and give you the headlines if you like on what the changes and updates are. But yeah, it can be tricky, which is why there's quite a few paid for services out there as well that will offer legislative updates. And I see quite a few clients.

moving down that route whenever they're really needing a wee bit more help than just spending hours trawling through reams of legislation. That's kind of part of our job which is easier but not necessarily a business.

Michael Venner (15:03)

Hmm.

special.

Yeah I suppose if you're a fairly low risk company like an office you might just use the government websites because the legislation is not going to be massive. But if you're sort of a big construction company or doing lots of waste or you know big manufacturing you know burning things then yeah you might want to sign up to one of those services yeah might be might make your life easier.

Paula Brady (15:25)

Absolutely.

Absolutely, but I think a lot of companies run into the issue of just listing absolutely everything. They'll just literally, every environmental legislation they can come up with and every health and safety or other requirement and not all of them will be relevant. Some of them are good for information purposes, but I think if you start to build a list of 100 or 200 legislations, it becomes a job in itself.

Michael Venner (15:39)

Yes.

Paula Brady (15:58)

do a compliance check because maybe 50 % of those aren't relevant to what you do as an organisation. I think that's something to be worked on by a lot of clients.

Michael Venner (16:08)

So how do I...

So if I've gone off and found a legislation that is applicable to me, I get rid of the stuff that's not applicable, what do I do with it then? Do I put it on a register? How do I manage it then?

Paula Brady (16:20)

So we see most companies putting it on a register because it's one of the simpler ways to kind of say, okay, I'm very much aware of what's relevant to me. Here's a list of them. And they'll usually sort of break it down into what the legislation is about and then compliance criteria. So, yep, this is what it's about. This is what we should have in place to show that we're compliant. And then that final step, which isn't always there is, and this is the evidence we checked.

within our own business to say, yeah, we're happy that we comply with those requirements. But it is nearly that, you know, three to four stage process. What's the legislation? Is it the most up to date version that I have? What is it about? How does it apply to me and what should I have in place? And then do I have it in place? So.

Michael Venner (17:10)

I think some

people do generic things, they? They this is what the legislation is. But they don't really say... I think you need to put it in layman's terms really because people reading it, your office staff, they look at it it means nothing. So I think it's important to put the specific of what your organisation needs to do to comply. I think it's quite important.

Paula Brady (17:31)

Yeah, nearly like a little checklist to say, okay, when it's the duty of care controlled waste regulations, what does that mean? You know, what does that mean for me? And it really is mapping out your waste streams, being aware of them, being aware of what our legal responsibility is, and then what documentation we should have in place to demonstrate that we're compliant. So you're talking your waste transfer notes and your season tickets, the licenses of your waste contractors for carrying it and for managing that waste.

You know, it's the checklist nearly writes itself when you understand the requirements of what that legislation is. know, the waste regs have specific information that needs to be on your waste transfer documentation. And that's another yearly checklist to know that you have to put in there your European waste catalog codes, your standard industry classification codes, a description of the waste.

where it's being picked up from, who's carrying it, where it's going, what signatures are required to be on there. So it takes a little bit of work.

Michael Venner (18:34)

Yeah, so you'll

almost need like bullet points on it to say these are the bits you need on it. Yeah, because quite often when we're looking at waste transfer notes, there's bits missing, there? Let's be fair, someone's not signed it, the hierarchy's not there, EWC's not there. There's always something like that. I think waste companies don't make our lives very easy today because I think they're in, collect the bin or waste and then just leave and yeah.

Paula Brady (18:41)

Yeah.

Always.

Yep. Nine times out of ten.

Yeah,

and they're aware of the requirement, but I think what a lot of businesses miss is that it's actually their responsibility to make sure the paperwork's right. So you employ a waste contractor and they think that's it. Like they know what they're doing. They assume that the paperwork's fine and they never check it. So when we come in as auditors and we go, can we see that waste documentation? And we look down through it for that compliance check that we do as part of our audit.

Michael Venner (19:00)

paperwork.

Paula Brady (19:27)

and you go, no, actually these aren't right. And you know, we get a lot of shock, I'm sure you have had that too, where they're going, what do you mean they're not right? you know, you have to explain though, as producer of the waste, it's actually your documentation. The contractors supply it as a service, but it's not their responsibility to check and make sure it's right. That's yours. Because if that waste goes astray and ends up somewhere it shouldn't be, you're the one prosecuted.

not your waste contractor. So, you know.

Michael Venner (19:58)

Yeah, which I understand but also find it little bit confusing. Not confusing. So I understand, yeah, you're responsible but you can't just say I collected the waste, I've got no responsibility. Surely there's a the waste carriers and things like that, they've got a duty as well on that, surely.

Paula Brady (20:14)

you

They have a duty but I don't think it really sets it out fully in the legislation that, you know, when it comes down to it, it's the producer of the waste, has the ultimate responsibility. Much like on a building site, it's the principal contractor has a responsibility, even if it's a subcontractor who comes on site and it's his man or somebody gets hurt or there's a breach sort of down the chain, the ultimate responsibility comes back up to

principal contractor and their insurances. I think it's pretty much that there might be some liability on your contractor but not fully. did a previous business I worked for, we had an instance where we had a waste contractor come in. We had been very clear in what we wanted from the waste contractor that we're taking off topsoil and bringing it to a local council facility that we believed on that contract there was a government oversight.

or from a broad perspective thing, but he actually followed. that oversight followed the waste contractor to a farmer's field and seen him tipping into a farmer's field on unlicensed waste transfer or, you know, illegal waste transfer. And he brought it to the attention of the environment agency. Now as principal contractor, because we had ISO 14001, because we had a contract signed up.

with the waste contractor that specified where they were supposed to take it and their documentation said that they were taking it to where we believed it was. They left us out of that prosecution and it went on to the waste contractor.

Michael Venner (21:58)

You had done everything

you had to do. Paperwork was there. They were being fraudulent basically.

Paula Brady (22:07)

Yeah. But if we hadn't have been checking the paperwork and you know, it hadn't given any disposal site, we would have been liable. Now that did beg the question about when do you have to follow your waste contractors to make sure they're taking it to where they're saying they're taking it. And it's probably something I have a discussion with clients with quite a bit and I say only if you're suspicious that they're not taking it.

where they say they are. If you know the site's half an hour away and they're back in 20 minutes, you know they haven't went to where they're supposed to, then you have an obligation randomly to have followed to make sure. But you who's, what building contractor or what company is going to follow their waste contractor vehicles back, you know, it's a tough one.

Michael Venner (22:55)

Interesting,

interesting. So what, here's one that I think catches some people out. When the council take their waste, so if it's an office, the council take their waste. Do they need to have records for that?

Paula Brady (23:08)

do yeah and it is one that catches people out so all councils are sort of very aware of this and they will issue season tickets for collection of commercial waste now that's if you're registered business and there's a there's a fee to actually get in well in Northern Ireland there certainly is there's a fee for commercial waste collection from your councils yeah and so they are duty-bound to supply you with

Usually a season ticket. So a season ticket is like a waste transfer note, but it lasts for a period of up to 12 months, up to and not over 12 months. So you will find a lot of councils issuing those to the organizations that they collect from. And it means that you don't have to have an individual note for every weekly collection of, say, your recycling bin or your general waste bin. And that documentation suffices from a legal perspective to show that

you have a contract in place for somebody who's licensed to take your waste and these are the waste types that they're taking and they'll usually give you one for each separate waste stream but you're right not many people ask for it

Michael Venner (24:12)

Yeah,

I've caught a few clients on that. Where they just assume, well it's the council, of course they're doing it right. You've still got, like you say, a duty, a care and an obligation to get that paperwork and have it in place.

Paula Brady (24:26)

Yeah, we laugh because we actually, for one of the local councils, we do a few departments and the council itself lifts some of the waste from one of the departments. So that was difficult to get through to them. They still needed a season ticket from inside their own organisation for their general waste streams, even though was on the same site that they kind of lifted from. So, yeah, you can get, you can get.

Michael Venner (24:43)

Okay.

Paula Brady (24:53)

awkward ones like that but it's certainly interesting.

Michael Venner (24:56)

Yeah okay so we've identified the legislation that's applicable to us we've kind of put it onto a register you say we kind of identify what's required in it in the legislation and then the last bit what was it evaluation of compliance was it you said

Paula Brady (25:11)

Evaluation of

compliance, which is a clause all in its own right of both environmental and health and safety standard. So yeah, be aware of it, but then demonstrate, check, verify your compliance status because that's actually where you can catch things before they become an issue. So if you are, for example, under LOLER looking at your lifting operations and lifting equipment and

you have done a thorough compliance check on the statutory inspections, for example, that you get done and realise that you've either missed equipment or there's been significant defect and so this stuff isn't appropriate for what you're doing, then you've of caught your breach before it becomes an issue or before someone else, like the health and safety executive come in.

and realise that there's an issue there in a breach. So that self-check becomes really vital to making sure, one, that your equipment and policies, processes, risk assessments are correct and keeping your people safe and healthy, but also preventing that sort of breach of legislation and prosecution or improvement notices from your health and safety executive. Same goes for your environmental. If you are doing that check,

really thoroughly, you're identifying your issue before it becomes an issue. It goes back to your risk management of your standards, that kind of initial clauses, you know, what are your internal, external issues, which legislation and compliance is one of them. And it follows through that process. Okay, is this a risk for us? Yes, it is. What do we have in place? Well, we have a legislation register and we check our compliance on a regular basis, mitigating the risk, meaning that we're not going to be dealing with an issue further down the line.

Michael Venner (26:53)

Do have to record this? Is that a requirement? Do they record these checks?

Paula Brady (26:57)

they have to record the status of compliance. So it's a bit of a gray area in the standard in the fact that you have to record the results of your compliance check. So yes, we're compliant. No, we're not compliant. It doesn't specify how exactly that process goes. There's guidance on it, but the actual black and white of the standard says that what has to be recorded is the result of the compliance check.

Michael Venner (27:08)

point.

There's a bit of a get out there, but I suppose if we go in and find things wrong, bits of legislation they're not compliant with, we can then say that process isn't working, obviously. Your simple yes and no needs a bit more meat on the bones.

Paula Brady (27:27)

little bit.

is not effective. That

tends to be where it's at with a lot of clients. They've said yes or no but an external auditor comes in we check the evidence because it's part of the process of what we have to do and say well actually there's issues here so your compliance check process isn't being effective to prevent this.

and yeah, you're right, then we can raise an issue on the process. But if we check, if all they say is yes or no, yes, we're compliant, no, we're not. And that process has been, we find nothing in our audit. You can't raise anything, but you can sort of say to them, it might be beneficial to look at it this way and to record the evidence that you're using to determine your compliance status, because that's a good tool to look back on. So when you come to do your next compliance check, can...

look back at your previous one and see what was checked and do a similar process. Obviously taking a different sample.

Michael Venner (28:31)

Yeah, so you don't need to check them all every year then you're saying you can just do a couple each year. Is it?

Paula Brady (28:37)

It depends how well controlled they are but personally I think it's good practice to all your critical legislations that you need to be compliant to to do a regular check on them be that six monthly or annually at least take that objective evidence and verify it sort of frequently enough. Some companies do go down the other way and they'll take two or three pieces of legislation.

Michael Venner (28:38)

Yeah.

Paula Brady (29:03)

on an annual basis and just verify compliance but then for everything else that's relevant how do you justify that statement of compliance? That's it gets difficult. It's a risk and if you went by the you're not recording a result of compliance against all relevant legislation if you're only picking one or two a year.

Michael Venner (29:13)

I suppose it's a risk, isn't it? It's a big risk.

OK, so here's one for you. They're paying us to go in and do an audit. Why can't they use our audit? I've had that before. Well, that's what I'm paying you to do. To do their evaluation.

Paula Brady (29:35)

Well,

all that we're supposed to be doing is checking that they have a good process in place to verify that they're compliant with legislation. So really and truly, we should just be checking the process, but we will do our own compliance check to check the process, if that makes sense. It's a bit of a double up on that. But so they can't really rely on us because that's not what the standard says they need to be doing. They should be doing their own internal audit.

they should be making themselves aware of and up to date on all relevant legislations and amendments and they should be doing their own compliance check. If we can help out by raising something, great but...

Michael Venner (30:13)

Yeah,

I've had it before and I think I'm trying to remember what the document is. There's an EA document I think it's 07 / 4 I'm geeking off a bit that actually says it's the client's legal obligation. It's not ours We're there like you say to do a management system check and we'll have a brief look at some of the legislation Obviously make sure they're compliant. But yeah, it's their responsibility the end of the day. It's not ours

Paula Brady (30:44)

Yeah, absolutely not. what we do is to, that's the other thing. In audits you're only ever taking a sample, but a full out compliance check shouldn't just be a sample, which comes back to that one or two legislations a year. Doesn't really cut it. It should be a statement of, am compliant with everything that I am required to be compliant to. And you need the evidence backup to sort of confirm that. Otherwise you're making a guess.

Michael Venner (30:45)

We're just doing a sample.

Paula Brady (31:11)

you're taking on risk and you know it's not necessarily a good thing for a business to take on that level of risk because it is the one thing that you've missed that may cause accident injury or a pollution incident and then you're into a whole different level of thing where suddenly it's you know one you've either hurt somebody by not sort of keeping and maintaining your management systems you haven't provided a safe place of work or you haven't protected the environment.

and then that also has an impact on reputation and public perception.

Michael Venner (31:44)

So either way I'm going to get prosecuted. Really, or I can get prosecuted I should say.

Paula Brady (31:46)

Yeah.

Yeah, it's

a risk and some companies aren't aware of the full requirements of each legislation. I had a client too who on forklift inspections, so statutory annual inspection is required for forklift trucks. They had a six monthly maintenance contract in place. And so they believed they were doing over and above what the requirement was, but it was a maintenance contract. It wasn't a statutory inspection.

So they actually were fully in breach of the legislation. I haven't believed that they were sort doing best in class. So.

Michael Venner (32:27)

I've had that actually when someone was getting their emergency systems tested or checked under a service contract. They assumed the emergency lighting was being done but it wasn't. So I think it's important knowing what's got to be done and making sure your contracts if you are outsourcing some of those things which you will in most cases, making sure that actually those contracts do what they've got to do, meet the legislation.

Paula Brady (32:49)

Absolutely.

The easiest way to do that is to sample your evidence and check, read your inspections. The other great one is sort of the, we've covered this under non-conformances, but defect reports on your statutory inspections. So if defects have been raised, you legally have to do something about them. If they're category A, actually the inspection body is required to inform the health and safety executive. So if they're unsafe for use,

they are sort of duty bound to inform the HSE that they have failed a piece of equipment and then you have to do something about it before you put it back into operation. A category B defect is one that has to be done usually within either one to three months, one month, three months. It'll specify on your statutory inspection. And then there are recommendations and those are safety recommendations. While they don't sort of carry the same timeframe constraints, they should be considered.

by the company as something that needs done and you'll see things like seat belts and tire wear and tear and horns and sort of a lot of safety equipment on larger pieces of kit that require checks. And then apart from the lifting stuff, there's provision and use of work equipment regs which kind of takes in everything else. So that's all of the equipment that you use as a business should be safe to operate.

you know, how you prove it's safe to operate can vary. It's not just as black and white as the lifting operations, but it's being aware of all of that and making sure that you have the right documentation in place and you've read it. Which is, some people get the cert go, great, I'm compliant, but don't actually read the results of that inspection. That's how you manage that. So yeah, it's like reading your waste transfer documentation.

Michael Venner (34:33)

Yeah, so how many clients do you know that have maybe had the HSE or EA visit them? How many do you think? Because I think people assume, they're not going to look at me because I'm a small company or, you know, this is all I do. They're not going to come on site. But how many do you think that you know of, obviously?

Paula Brady (34:46)

Yeah.

I would say a good

90 % at the minute for health and safety in particular because well Northern Ireland have started, health and safety executive have started these things called campaigns and so they will try to visit a wide range in number of businesses on those campaign topics. So they'll go in, they've just recently finished workplace transport, they're on now lockout and tag out.

Michael Venner (34:57)

Really?

Okay.

Paula Brady (35:18)

before that it was welding and so where live in particular huge amount of welding and I think pretty much every business even if it was a small sort of five-man band to the couple of hundred employee organizations pretty much got a visit and they were quite they're very helpful but they also were quite strict with the requirement of what they were visiting on so construction sites as well that's been a fairly recent thing though. Environmental Agency

You're talking about 10 % maybe of companies getting a visit. It really is that different.

Michael Venner (35:50)

Yeah, see I'm only,

the environmental agency, I'm only aware of sort of the waste companies that we certify being, had the EA in them, to be honest. If you're outside the waste remit, they don't look, but they should. There should be more funding for the EA, if you ask my opinion, to enable them to go in and prosecute. I see stuff all the time that, not from our clients, but you know, we're out and about all the time and we see stuff going on.

Paula Brady (35:55)

Okay.

Yeah, and that's part of their...

Okay.

Michael Venner (36:16)

You know, it's bad.

Paula Brady (36:18)

Yeah, really bad as I say, if they don't have ISO 14001 I would say probably 99 % of businesses aren't aware of what their legal responsibility is around environmental legislation. As I said, it's quite a wake up call for a lot of businesses when they go to implement the likes of ISO 14001 to suddenly be aware of all of this that they didn't realize. You know, it's...

always gives you sort of a pause and cause for concern and then you know that you're doing a good thing actually because they should be aware and so ISO 14001 I think it's just a really good standard from that perspective.

Michael Venner (36:54)

Mm.

Have you seen any organisations really benefit from having ISO 14001 for example?

Paula Brady (37:04)

Absolutely, I mean if you really manage your waste effectively that management should pay for itself or actually provide an income or a savings as well so you know instead of throwing all into one skip and paying a fortune because landfill fees are only going up and up and up it's not going to change and so the price of that one skip is going to increase year on year

But if you start to sort of look at segregating your waste streams, recycling it a little bit more, things aren't going to landfill, you don't have the landfill tax to pay. And suddenly you're sort of bringing back when you're segregating your scrap metals and things like that, which actually have a value for sale. Yeah, you see everything starting to click into place. You're more efficient, you're minimizing your scrappage.

ISO 14001 sort of your some of your critical key performance indicators can be that minimization of waste and companies really start to look at their waste streams and go well how come we are we have so much scrap metal or we have so much waste wood or packaging that's costing us money to dispose of on the other side so review it bring it back in minimize and mitigate look at your efficiencies and suddenly

that look at from an environmental perspective at your waste streams has saved the business thousands of pounds. So yeah, there's all of that. Yeah.

Michael Venner (38:34)

It's

worth going through the pain I think of identifying the legislation and making sure you're compliant. I mean we have to do the same thing we don't get certified but we obviously have to be aware of all the legislation that's not only applicable to us but our clients and yes it can be a mammoth task.

Paula Brady (38:52)

huge and that's every

geographical area that you operate in as a certification body so you know and all the industries so we do our our legislation registers are hundreds of items on each of the environmental health and safety and information security comes into it as well with big changes in that so no it's it's a vast topic and it's one that everybody

Michael Venner (39:00)

Yeah.

Paula Brady (39:19)

sort of battles with and you know how to know and recognise when the legislation changes if you need to be aware of the amendment or not. It could be a full time job if you really let it but it's about streamlining the process.

Michael Venner (39:34)

Yeah, you're right, not just identifying it, it's keeping up to date with it because things change, don't they? Would you use the same method to keep up to date with finding it in the first place? Go back on those websites and things like that.

Paula Brady (39:40)

Yep.

Yeah, exactly it. So you just keep refreshing your knowledge and going back and checking on a sort of regular, I would do it pretty much monthly on those websites to keep my knowledge up and aware just because we're in so many different industries and we have to be aware when we're doing the audit of what the most up-to-date legislation is so that we can check our clients are aware of it. And if they're not, make them aware of it.

through raising enough opportunities for improvement or no conformance is to say your process is letting you down you weren't aware of this it's directly related to what you do as a business.

Michael Venner (40:25)

So how often should they sort of check it themselves?

Paula Brady (40:28)

think it very much comes down to the risk level of the business. you say, a small office based company won't need to be on check-in every month because for the few legislations that are directly relational, you know, they'll sort of catch them in time with a six monthly or an annual check-in update. Your larger construction or manufacturing or engineering businesses or those organizations that supply

service to a client that sort of is based in legislative requirement like your architects, your structural engineers and those people who sort of part of what they do is providing to their clients the most up-to-date requirements probably should be looking at least monthly to keep an eye on what's changing and what's updating.

Michael Venner (41:07)

Hmm.

Hmm, so it's quite a load of work, isn't it?

Paula Brady (41:21)

quite a lot of work but when you have your sources kind of figured out it's a 10 minute job probably or quite a few professional bodies that they're registered with will actually send them updates and emails on changes in legislations and like you're building regs you know a lot of the professional bodies will actually let the architectural practices know because they're registered with them and keep them up to speed journals, magazines sort of everything to do with your trade and industry

Michael Venner (41:27)

Yeah.

you

Hmm.

Paula Brady (41:49)

There's quite a few sources out there.

Michael Venner (41:51)

I suppose all the effort's worth it because then you can sleep well at night as a business owner. One less thing to worry about isn't it?

Paula Brady (41:59)

Absolutely. When we raise things related to legislative breaches, I think it's one that is probably one of the most valuable ones that we'll raise for company because what we're doing is mitigating the risk. Much better that we see it, then something happens because it's not right. Or an enforcement body comes in and sees it and suddenly it's something much more significant. That's one of beauty of the standards to kind of...

have that checks and measures while we're not there to verify as we said earlier it is that that if we see it it's to the company's own benefit for their risk that they do something about it and that tends to be the response I get back.

Michael Venner (42:38)

Good. OK. We're out of time. Is there anything you wanted to add Paula?

Paula Brady (42:43)

I think we've pretty much covered it but I would say that if anybody ever has any queries or questions you know you have my email is pretty much available and come and ask the question on yeah we don't aren't quite sure what we should do here or there and I'd be more than happy to help.

Michael Venner (42:45)

Yeah.

details in the show notes. Everyone knows how to get hold of us generally. OK, brilliant. Well, thanks for your time Paula. I appreciate that. I've been very informative and we'll catch you another time. Think of something else we could do.

Paula Brady (43:04)

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you.