By All Standards

From Military to Management: Danny Lee’s Journey into Auditing & Consulting

• Auva Certification • Episode 10

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Summary

In this podcast episode, Danny Lee shares his journey from a 15-year career in the Royal Air Force to becoming a consultant in the auditing sector. He discusses the transferable skills from the military to civilian auditing, the training he undertook, and his experiences with certification bodies. Danny reflects on the challenges and learning opportunities he encountered during his transition, emphasising the importance of preparation and adaptability in his new role. In this conversation, Danny Lee and Michael Venner discuss the intricacies of auditing, sharing insights from their experiences in the field. They explore the skills required for effective auditing, the importance of understanding management systems, and the challenges faced in design development. Danny reflects on how his military background informs his consulting approach, while also outlining his future aspirations in aerospace auditing. The discussion concludes with valuable advice for those considering a career in auditing or consulting, emphasising the need for the right personality traits and discipline.


Takeaways


  • Danny transitioned from a military career to civilian auditing.
  • He found auditing to be a structured and disciplined field.
  • Danny enjoyed building management systems in the military.
  • He realized he wanted to leave the military while still young.
  • The military provided him with enhanced learning credits for training.
  • Danny's military background helped him in understanding auditing standards.
  • He observed different auditing styles during his training.
  • The certification process requires thorough documentation of experience.
  • Danny felt well-prepared for his first independent audit.
  • He found the transition to civilian life both challenging and rewarding. Understanding processes quickly is crucial in auditing.
  • Auditing requires a balance of open and closed questions.
  • Creating a calm environment helps during audits.
  • Learning from experiences is key to personal growth.
  • Different companies have unique management systems.
  • Customer feedback is vital for project management success.
  • Design development can be complex and technical.
  • Military experience can enhance consulting skills.
  • Being a third-party auditor provides valuable insights.
  • Approachability and discipline are essential traits for auditors.


Key Links

Auva Website: www.auva.com

Apple Podcast:  https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/by-all-standards/id1771677594

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/79OUNj3vY9dmESR3okwHJa?si=871837f56dc149b6

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@auvacertification/podcasts

LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/company/auva-certification-ltd 

Instagram: @auvacert

Michael Venner:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelvenner-isocertificationexpert/ 

Danny Lee:  

Website: www.onesystemmgt.com

LinkedIN: www.linkedin.com/in/hiredannylee

Michael Venner (00:16)
Okay welcome everybody to the next podcast. We're fortunate enough today to have Danny Lee join us. So Danny will introduce himself but Danny's quite new to the...

the sector, to the industry and we're just going to have a little chat about sort of getting into the sector really and lessons learned and to help people who want to get into it as well. So Danny do you to quickly introduce yourself?

Danny Lee (00:46)
Yeah, great. Cheers, Mike. So like you've just said, I'm Danny Lee. I come from the Royal Air Force. So a lot of this is pretty alien to me. But the auditing itself is pretty translatable between the military and sort of the civilian world. So yeah, it's been a good journey and I'm sure we'll go into it a bit more.

Michael Venner (01:07)
Yeah, that's it. So how long have you actually been sort of in the sector, so to speak? It's not been too long, has it?

Danny Lee (01:15)
Yeah,

no, so I left technically September 2024. So we're talking sort of four or five months, five, six months really not a lot, not a long time at all really

Michael Venner (01:27)
Yeah, you're really, really fresh into it, you? So what made you make the decision to sort get into this sector? Is there anything in particular or was there something from your background that you enjoyed?

Danny Lee (01:30)
Yeah.

Yeah, so in the 15 years in the military, did lots of different types of things in lots of different places, right? But I ended my last two and a half years doing quality audits. So looking after the logistics function. So I was responsible for 131 people and we were dealing with different types of quality matters, revolving around logistics and warehousing and storage and sort of supply and distribution and things.

but I was also fortunate enough to be auditing the helicopter engineering departments. So specifically Puma and Chinook, which are two different types of helicopter. And I was on technically for another 20 years in the military. So I'd done 15, another 20 to go based on sort of how quickly I'd progressed up the ranks and had been promoted. But I was sort of a turning point really in doing quality for those two and a half years. made me sort of realize what I wanted to be when I was older.

And it was just a decision then, do I stay and commit myself for the rest of my life to the military? Or do I get out while I'm still young, mean, I'm early 30s, and apply myself elsewhere and try something different? So I decided to leave. And most military people tend to go down the auditing route, down the compliance side of things, because it's very structured and it's very disciplined.

very objective, which is what we like. You know, there's lots of standardization. So it kind of just sort of made sense to go down that route. And then it was just figuring out how do I want to play this? So do I want to become an auditor and become an employee, or do I want to start my own thing and go in a completely different direction and just take risk after risk after risk, leave the military, young family, set up roots in Oxford, start a company and just absolutely go for it.

And so Common Sense didn't prevail and I just sort of went for the latter and here we are. Started my own company. Yeah, and now we're on the podcast.

Michael Venner (03:39)
You

Any regrets yet? is it still early days?

Danny Lee (03:50)
I wish I'd done it sooner, that's my only thing. But yeah, probably early days as well. We'll see.

Michael Venner (03:52)
Yeah, okay. Interested.

Wish you'd done it sooner, so you're enjoying it then.

Danny Lee (03:59)
Yeah, really enjoying it. Yeah, definitely. I like the consultancy side of things. The auditing is really eye-opening and it's good to see that side of things. But I liked in the military, my role specifically was building the management systems and making sure people were complying in preparation for our version of sort third party audits. I really enjoyed that side of things. But the certification auditing has always had this slight little pull on me.

Michael Venner (04:19)
Mm.

Danny Lee (04:27)
because it is completely impartial. You get to go into a company essentially blind. You've got stage one, obviously you get to see it, but when you go into it, you don't really know the people, the specific processes and how in depth they are. And it's good to see how people are managing those systems. So I really liked both sides of the fence, to be honest, but decided to sell the consultancy rather than it.

Michael Venner (04:51)
Yeah.

Danny Lee (04:54)
certification body right because I could only imagine how difficult that is. So great job there.

Michael Venner (04:58)
Yeah, very difficult, very costly as well. So yeah, I think you made the right decision. So how different is it to sort of the military side then on how the auditing approaches? Because you said we go in blind obviously, so in the military you're not as blind I'm assuming are you?

Danny Lee (05:16)
Because it's one big organisation, right? So you know the processes and generally you kind of know the people as well. So it's more internal auditing than it is sort of external, right? So you would have crossed paths with people working in different departments because you would have been overseas with them or you'd have been at the same camp, you know, years down the line. So you have this sort of rapport straight away. You can sort of build that connection with the auditee essentially.

Michael Venner (05:26)
Hmm.

Danny Lee (05:43)
And then especially the internal stuff. within like logistics specifically, that's been my world. So the aerospace, which would be like AS 9120 specifically, that's sort of our bread and butter, right? That's what we do on a day-to-day basis. So the actual auditing itself is practically the same as I've seen, as I've gone through your process, it's practically the same. We ask the same sort of questions. We're looking for the same sort of evidence. We weren't going down the route of say ISO 9001 though, specifically.

Michael Venner (05:53)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Lee (06:13)
We have our own sort of military version of that. Obviously we've got the aerospace combined with it. We're held to a much higher standard as you'll know from aerospace and there's obviously a big drive on the military side of things and operations and missions and sort of how we conduct those activities.

Michael Venner (06:31)
Yeah, okay. Yeah, there's actually quite a lot of military people in the sector. I don't think you've met him yet, but Wayne, he's been on the podcast a couple of times. He's ex-Navy. And then some people I used to work with in previous employment, they were ex-RAF and things like that. So, does seem to be a...

kind of a good sector to get into when you're out of the military and I think like you say it's kind of a bit regimented in how you approach things and things like that so it probably fits quite well yeah yeah because I think when do we meet it was probably about last August wasn't it I think about that was a good guess

Danny Lee (07:04)
August, that's exactly when it was. Yeah, so I'd,

I had decided in the September of 23 to leave and there's a year notice period. So they're happy for you to go, but you know, they'll sort of keep tucking you back. So yeah, so then in the sort of February, I went and did my lead audit courses. And that's when I realized that consultancy was actually a thing. And I'd sort of made the decision about May time.

Michael Venner (07:16)
Alright.

You

Danny Lee (07:32)
not to go down the employment route, start my own company. Started the company in June and then, yeah, August. I was fortunate enough to meet up with you in person, which was really good. Thank you for your time on that. It was really valuable. Yeah, and here we are. A lot's happened since. No, no, you're the reason I went for it. So, good job. Yeah.

Michael Venner (07:46)
I didn't put you off. Yeah, I didn't put you off. Don't blame me.

did the military provide you with any, I know some people when they leave the military they get sort of a bit of funding or something to allow them to do training courses or did they provide you with training courses while you were still there? Did anything like that happen?

Danny Lee (08:09)
Yeah, so once you've done over eight years, get some enhanced learning credits, they're called. You get some before the eight year point. But at the eight year point, you get £6,000 and you can take those in three chunks of £2,000 each financial year. And so I'd save mine up because I wanted to wait until I knew I was going to leave and then choose some courses that were going to be relevant to a potential industry I was going into, rather than use them really early on and then decide that's not what I want to do when I'm older.

Michael Venner (08:19)
Okay.

Danny Lee (08:37)
it made sense to hold onto them and I'm glad I did. And I was able to bundle the ISO 9001 and ISO 14001 course together for one enhanced learning credit and then just top it up with a bit of own money. yeah, so we get funding that way.

Michael Venner (08:49)
Perfect.

Perfect. So you've done the 9001 and the 14001 Lead Auto courses. Okay. Okay. So I mean, 9000 is kind of the first critical step really when people get into the industry. If you haven't done your Lead Auto, you've got to go and do that first. How did you find that experience?

Danny Lee (08:55)
14 lead auditor.

Yeah, was really good. I enjoyed it. Like said, it's not too dissimilar for what I was specifically doing in my role anyway. It was just more understanding the nuances about UKAS how certification bodies work, and the specifics of the standard rights, so 9 and 14, the specific clauses and the breakdown. So I can tell you everything there is to know from a military perspective and all the doctrine we have and the governance, but the standard was pretty alien to me basically.

So it was just case of reading through that entire sort of thing, everything that goes around it, go through the whole standard and then understanding how that is applied then to a commercial setting and how to conduct the audit in that way.

Michael Venner (09:56)
Did it help you on the course to have that military background? Because when we go on courses, we try and always see how it fits into your own sort of life, experiences, you kind of to help you learn. Were you able to do that from the military side? Because it is quite different, obviously, to commercial world.

Danny Lee (10:14)
Yeah,

so the course that was run was specifically for military personnel, so we were all leaving. Yeah, it's not a course you would necessarily do whilst you're still in the military unless you had aspirations of leaving to go and do that. It doesn't really lend itself to any relevance really in our world. It's a very, you know, uniquely commercial thing. So yeah, there was, I think there was 11 or 12 of us on the course, all military.

Michael Venner (10:22)
okay.

Danny Lee (10:42)
or become an ex-military from Navy, Army and Air Force. it was good. We all spoke the same language, right? The same military language, which was good. And our instructor, because he works with military and ex-military as well as obviously civilians, because he is a civilian, he hasn't been in the military. He spent enough time around military folk to understand the language we're using. So if we talk about one thing, he'll say, yeah, that's great, but that's not what we call it. We call it this.

Michael Venner (11:06)
Hmm.

Danny Lee (11:11)
So we actually played a role in teaching us a new language effectively, like the ISO language.

Michael Venner (11:14)
Okay.

That's interesting, okay. I never knew that existed to be honest. That's quite useful information. Yeah, I suppose it does help when you've got someone that knows both sectors that they're able to help guide you through that training course because yeah, it's quite alien just sitting on these courses and they're talking all this language and it is quite daunting. Yeah, it's definitely quite daunting. I remember when I first done it, was twenty...

Danny Lee (11:34)
Yeah.

Michael Venner (11:43)
four years ago I think and I was like what the hell is going on here it was really confusing so yeah I can imagine it was quite bad for military background really so when did you do the course?

Danny Lee (11:47)
You

Yeah.

February 24th. So a year ago. Yeah.

Michael Venner (11:59)
Okay, about a year ago. Okay, so it's quite,

you've done it quite a bit before you actually left, but I suppose that helped you decide that's what you want to do, was it?

Danny Lee (12:08)
Yeah, that's right. I'd made the decision that auditing or sort of quality management is the route I wanted to go. And like I said, it wasn't until the May I realised that it wasn't the certification body route I wanted to take. It was an employment. And so, you know, staff on my own. And it's at that time I realised that you can freelance a subcontract for certification bodies anyway. So I was like, I've got the best of both worlds here. I can go and do my consultancy thing.

Michael Venner (12:22)
Hmm.

Danny Lee (12:37)
But I can also go and do some certification body stuff, is exactly why we got in touch and sat down over a coffee and went through it all.

Michael Venner (12:46)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah, it is good. There are lot of freelancers in the sector. We rely on them heavily, really.

Some certification bodies will do full-time employees and only a small fraction of contractors. We're the opposite. We do mostly contractors and things like that. We just find it works really well for our business and the mix of clients and the locations. You'll never be out of work in this sector, I say. So I don't know anyone that's regretted it yet. Yeah, OK. Yeah, so.

Danny Lee (13:11)
Yeah.

Good.

it.

Michael Venner (13:20)
How was your journey? So you came out of the military, obviously we met up, so that was about September time, so what were the steps you had to go through to getting signed off really with us and any other certification body? What was the process?

Danny Lee (13:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, so after our initial call, I was sort handed over to your back office team, effectively. So Terry and Alan specifically, they were great. And it starts off with the EA codes. So I was, I say bombarded with a load of paperwork, essentially, right, to fill out. And that's not, you know, alien to us, you know, from a military background, that's, you know, pretty common.

Michael Venner (13:58)
You

Hmm.

Danny Lee (14:07)
It was just case of working through all of that paperwork, specifically the EA codes, and then translating a lot of my knowledge and understanding of the requirements over to the documents to show that I had the actual experience. And I actually was surprised with the extent of it, which was a good thing, because what I didn't want to do was be a part of

an organization and not just yours, but like, you UKAS in general that allowed sort of anyone just to come in and do the auditing because that didn't feel right. I wanted to make sure that there was a line of experience and expertise to be able to go and do this auditing, right? Because otherwise what's the point? It's not worthwhile. So I put a lot of time and effort into it to make sure that I got down exactly what I'd done and what I'd achieved and then send that over back to your team. And that was all signed off.

straight away. I Terry was particularly happy with sort of the extent to which I'd filled out. So maybe we'll fill it in so in depth next time for other EA codes, but that was good.

Michael Venner (15:13)
It's

good, because a big part, and I think people don't appreciate it, it is a lot of effort to get first step in the certification body. So like you say, there's 39 EA codes, so I just picked manufacturing EA17 for now. And yes, you're right, you have to be able to demonstrate your knowledge. I don't know anything about farming, so I've got no chance of going into any organisation that does farming because I can barely weed the garden.

Yeah, so I would have no chance of filling in those competence questionnaires and that's what they are. It's testing your knowledge, like you say, to do you actually know what you're talking about in this sector so that we're confident that we can put you into those types of organisations and you know what you're talking about. Yeah, you see a machine and you know what they are, things like that. So that's interesting. Some people, well, I say some people, a lot of people hate filling them in because it is paperwork and it is laborious.

Danny Lee (15:43)
Okay.

Michael Venner (16:13)
and there's many of them but without filling them in you can't even start so you know it is a big part of it and yeah I remember Terry saying that you've done a good job on them so it helps inspire confidence that you know you do know what you're talking about really so you know it does help. Yes some people don't put enough effort into them and they just put really short answers and bullet points but and then it to be honest we still need to get the answers so

Danny Lee (16:31)
Yeah, that's good to know. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Venner (16:43)
we can, if it's really short, we'll just have to do an interview review and fill them all in that way. It takes more time to be honest. So yeah, so that was the first step, filling those in and then I think you went on some audits didn't you, just observing just to kind of sit on the other fence, side of the fence I should say.

Danny Lee (16:49)
Mm.

Yeah, that's right. So I went off with Alan initially and we, yeah, we, it was good. We looked at an organization that takes equipment and then resells it effectively. So it was good to see how the certification audit takes place outside of the classroom environment from when I did my lead audit course. And Alan was really good.

not only asking the right questions and getting the right information and drawing the right information if they weren't sort of understanding fully what it is they're expected to demonstrate, he was able to sort of navigate different ways of asking different types of questions to get the right information, which was really good, without crossing that line of effectively telling them what to show him. And it just enabled them to show that they understand their management system. He just asked varying questions to get the right information, which was really good.

a really good learning point. And so I got to see it from beginning to end for that they had a recertification. So I got to see everything from clause four to clause 10 and the way that he approached it. I sort of imagined it would have been done in a very linear approach. So from four through to 10. But actually the way that he did it, he was able to see, you know, the any non-conformances that had been raised for internal audits or

any corrective actions that needed to take place. And he was able to see from there where the issues were in the management system, which really informed the route he would take for the audit, which was good to see. like I said, I thought it would be very linear, but actually it's quite nuanced. You need to know what you're looking for. You need to know where things could be, the issues they could be facing and what they're doing to really resolve them. So yeah, that was really, really good to see. And then I went off with Terry. Terry's great as well.

Michael Venner (18:38)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Lee (18:58)
And I got to go to Heathrow Airport to see one of the clients. And again, exactly the same, know, Terry had his own style of auditing, which was different from Alan's, but equally as good. I learned a lot from him as well, how he sort of navigated the audits and how he sort of inspired confidence in them that you're going to be okay. You're doing all the right stuff. We just need the information in an objective way with the right evidence.

demonstrate that your system's fit for purpose. So they were really good. I observed those audits, and then we moved on to the next part.

Michael Venner (19:37)
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting what you say, different styles. Everyone's got their own style. And if you come and watch me, I'll be totally different again.

There's more than one way to skin a cat and we get to the same answer but you'll find your own technique as well. What I say to people when you first start out on the journey of certification and auditing is it takes you a year of pure auditing, going out there, just doing lots of audits, absorbing all the information until you kind of find your own pattern. So you find your own route and you do what works for you. And we say that to everyone. Don't try and copy what we do necessarily.

necessarily. Yeah, so when you said about the linear part, and that's where some of the auditors get it wrong, they try and audit by clause.

Start at four, then go to five. It doesn't work. You're supposed to audit by process. Obviously the processes link across all clauses and they interweave and things like that. yeah, it's very important to sort of remember that. When you first go into the organisational, it's grasping what they do and their processes very quickly. Yeah, it can be quite a challenge. You've got to really within half an hour kind of get that together. So you're right to then sort of tailor your audit plans.

Danny Lee (20:47)
Yeah.

Michael Venner (20:58)
to suit what we're going to look at and things like that. We always send an audit plan before but yeah you do tailor it slightly when you get on site make some adjustments and change your approach yeah so that's good glad you learned quite a bit from that. many did you only go and witness two? Was it just two or you done a few more? Yeah okay.

Danny Lee (21:18)
Yeah, two, but they were over a course

of a few days, which was, yeah, yeah, they were, yeah, really in-depth.

Michael Venner (21:23)
Yes, quite lengthy ones. Yes.

And then you feel ready to go to the next stage, which was being witnessed.

Danny Lee (21:33)
That's right, straight into it. think having that experience in the military, especially in my role as the Senior Quality Manager, I was also leading teams that were doing internal audits anyway, so then I was reviewing their documents. So I've had a lot of really good experience with report writing and writing a report is writing a report, there's a structure to it. It's just different content, right? So I think that's why I was able to sort of pick it up really quickly.

Michael Venner (21:45)
Hmm.

Danny Lee (22:01)
just over two sort of shadowing opportunities. And then, yeah, so Terry said, you're ready, go for it. So I went and I did my own audit as the lead, beginning to end with Terry just observing. So he obviously didn't contribute anything to it. It was completely mine. The client was really happy. Thank you to them for allowing me to do that as well. And yeah.

Michael Venner (22:11)
Excellent.

Danny Lee (22:31)
Finish the report, send it over to Terry, two thumbs up straight away, fantastic. Get it sent over to the client. Some really good feedback from the client as well, the sort of questions I asked, the style that I'd asked, the questions in. Yeah, and then I'm signed off.

Michael Venner (22:48)
Excellent. Did you find it daunting doing your first one?

Danny Lee (22:52)
I thought I would, I really thought I would, but I was really well prepared from Alan and Terry. And like I said, my background sort of was conducive to actually, you know, getting the job done. I think if I didn't have that experience in the military, specifically in that sort of senior leadership role, I can imagine it could be quite daunting. The main thing is navigating the terminology, right? So I'm not used to a sales department.

a procurement department, customer feedback necessarily, right? You know, the financial side of things, it doesn't exist, you know, in the military for us specifically, there's teams that will manage that, but we're talking over, you know, there's about 30,000 people in the military and you'll have a team set up in one location that will manage contracts, for example. So what we see is very much, we need this equipment, we'll place an order for it on a system, it arrives, it gets fitted to a helicopter or fighter jet or

Michael Venner (23:23)
Yeah, I suppose not,

Danny Lee (23:51)
carrier aircraft and then off it goes. So like you said, it's about getting in, understanding their processes very quickly, understanding what the key high risk processes are and how they interlink and then being able to follow that audit trail. So yeah, it wasn't daunting or nerve wracking, but you have to think on your feet, you have to pivot and you have to ask the right questions because sometimes you just get

the one word answer, the yes or the no. That's not what you needed. So you need to change between the open questions and the closed questions. there's a lot to it. yeah, like I said, Terry and Alan did a great job preparing me for it. So super simple.

Michael Venner (24:22)
Yeah.

It is

a skill, auditing. I like to think we make it look easy, but there is a knack to it and it's extracting that information. And you're right, we do come up against different characters that someone will just give you a one word answer. know, hang on, sometimes you have to sort of tease the answer out of them. You kind of know it, but you can't put words in their mouth. have to tease them.

Danny Lee (24:52)
Hey

Right.

Michael Venner (25:01)
people freeze up, know, I had one lady come out of hives, you know, just panicking, you know, and obviously we're trying to put people at ease, we're not in there to sort of whack people with a stick or anything. We try and make people as calm as possible, you know, we're just going through the process, don't panic. But no one likes auditing, do they? No one likes being audited. It's, you know, we get it ourselves, yeah, so I totally understand where people...

Danny Lee (25:06)
Hello.

No, no, that's right.

Michael Venner (25:27)
know, freeze up and scare us out of the wrong thing and things like that. So I would say just be open. yeah, it's much easier that way. Much easier. I remember my first ever audit on. Go on.

Danny Lee (25:37)
Yeah, and we're looking for, sorry,

we're looking for conformance as well, Not non-conformities. So that helps.

Michael Venner (25:43)
Yeah, exactly.

exactly. Yeah, I remember my first, you saying how to adapt from the lessons learned in the classroom. My first one was horrendous. And I went on there, I turned up and I was like, no, no, this was in the classroom because they're using terminology that wasn't in the book. I was going through my notes like, no, that's not right.

It was horrible, it was really horrible, I hated it. But after a few you kind of get into the habit and things like that, so it sounds like you've done a really good job getting straight away, getting into the habit. That's good. Is there anything you've sort of learned from that entire experience?

Danny Lee (26:20)
Yeah.

Michael Venner (26:28)
obviously learn auditing but is there anything you learn maybe about yourself or running businesses or anything like that from the process or what should you do to have done better?

Danny Lee (26:38)
Yeah, I think, I mean, from a business perspective, so I've got to think with my businessman head on, right? So it was good to see how organizations function as a company. So I learned a lot from that to be able to build my own company, right? So the different departments that you need and how they interact with each other. So that was really good to see. I would say I sort of pre-populated a few questions just so I stayed on track. And actually,

Michael Venner (26:54)
Hmm.

huh.

Danny Lee (27:08)
When I said them out loud, I realised it doesn't actually make sense in the conversation that we were having. So I just sort of paused for a moment, gathered my thoughts, thought about what it is where I was trying to sort of get out of them, answer I was trying get out of them. then...

Yeah, and then we went for it. I would just say there's a time and a place for having a script. You just got to go with it. And like I said, that's going to come with experience, right? I'm going to start to understand the things to look for. There's common departments required in any company for it to function. And I think once I understand how they interact with each other, then it'll be lot easier. And I think as well, the other thing is other systems. So for example, like

SAS software. Nothing I'd ever been exposed to before, But everybody's got their own different type of SAS software to be able to manage their management systems or the HR functions. So I had to learn very quickly what they were and then on the fly, Google them, what does this do? Where could I find this information? How can I navigate the platform? So if someone, if the audity expects you to understand how...

monday.com works right and they're flicking through the system clicking on this clicking on that you've just got to be able to slow them down start again starting from the beginning i think one of the skills that i've sort of adapted to is being able to slow the audit down and not let them sort of just run away with it you know there might be key information that we may have glossed over that

Michael Venner (28:19)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Lee (28:44)
could actually have benefited them had I have seen it. yeah, yeah, lots, that I've learned have come from a completely different world into a different world. And I've got to learn terminology, systems, SAS, you know, how people operate. They're not military people, you know, they operate in different ways. there's a lot, yeah, a lot.

Michael Venner (29:05)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's very true actually, they're the bits that people don't think they miss.

is yeah, there's SAS, there's Progress Plus, Oracle, there's all kinds of what I'm looking at today is made 2 manage. I think I've seen it twice in my sort of career really. Some of them you don't see very often. There's bespoke systems. The art is always, they all kind of work in the same way in trying to achieve the same result. And you just have to, like you say, break it down, stop. There's always an input, some kind of activity to get to the next stage.

Danny Lee (29:20)
Bye.

Michael Venner (29:45)
It looks different but overall the same process is there. it's something you have to learn quite quickly. So that's good. So is there a bit of the standard you love? What's your favourite part of it? I'll sort of stick them in 9001 for now.

Danny Lee (29:50)
Yeah.

Yeah, I didn't

think I'd ever admit this, especially out loud. But I'd say nine and 10. So the internal audits, the KPIs, very statistics driven. I think that's a military thing as well. And then the customer feedback, actually, I really like that part. I like it because a lot of people struggle with it. So they think I sent out a customer satisfaction survey and they haven't come back to me, but I've done my bit.

Michael Venner (30:06)
I'm

Okay.

Mmm, yeah they do.

Danny Lee (30:31)
But actually there's other ways of showing it, right? So there's milestone conversations that happen and things, especially in project management, it doesn't continue unless the client's happy. So that's customer feedback and there's lots of different ways of finding that customer feedback. It could be website reviews on products and things like that. that part and then 10, the corrective actions part. That was really big in the military. They were really keen for.

Five Whys and Ishikawa and lots of the other tools to get to root cause, understanding human factors and I that doesn't play necessarily into 9 and 14 but it is a key thing to consider. Yeah, in aerospace exactly that. Yeah.

Michael Venner (31:07)
It in aerospace. Yeah, definitely does in aerospace, the human factors.

Yeah, yeah.

It's still, even though it's not in 9001, it can still be kind of a conversation piece that I put into people sometimes, have the conversation, talk about human factors. And especially when you start seeing root cause of human error and things like that on people's corrective actions, then you can start talking about human factors. And it's quite, in the basic sense, it's quite a simple process, isn't it? Once you sort of explain it to someone, they're like, okay, it makes sense. So they can adapt that, can't they?

Danny Lee (31:41)
Yeah

Michael Venner (31:43)
Well that's not in the

standards, it's no harm in having a conversation about it is it really? Yeah, if you've got some experience in a certain way, try and share that knowledge. And I think that's what people will appreciate when you're there auditing. Yes, you're there doing a job and checking compliance and things like that, but if you can bring some kind of value to the table, it goes a long way. It goes a long way with people. What about your worst bit? Everyone's got the claws they don't like. I'm going to guess what it is.

Danny Lee (31:48)
Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean that...

Michael Venner (32:13)
I'm going to guess what it is.

Danny Lee (32:14)
you're gonna see...

Michael Venner (32:15)
8.3 design.

Danny Lee (32:16)
8.3

design development. think that's a, I think it's a cop out. I think most people will say that because a lot of companies don't, don't do it right. And it's very rare. You'll probably come across it. And unless you've been in the world of CAD designs, are you necessarily going to understand it? So I think it's probably the most technical part of the standard because it requires technical, technical understanding to be able to grasp the concepts, right? So 8.3 is the generic answer. I would say.

Eight in general, if I'm honest. Eight in total. The reason for it is because it's all operational driven, right? And that's a world I haven't come from. So we have our own way of doing it in the military. But eight is looking at the entire process. So we're looking from the customer inquiry all the way through to dispatch and everything in between, which is the bit I'm trying to understand and I'm trying to learn. So I think that's the most difficult part for me is...

Michael Venner (32:49)
Okay.

Hmm.

Danny Lee (33:15)
is Clause 8, rest of it, super simple, right? But yeah, Clause 8 is the really nuanced part and having the right processes and procedures in place and understanding those. And it's actually the bit I enjoy consulting on the most because it enables me to learn lots very quickly. But yes, the bit that comes up and I need to spend a bit of extra time on it.

Michael Venner (33:32)
Hmm.

Yeah, every company is different as well. That's the thing about Section 8. You could go into 15 manufacturing companies and they'll all be different how they achieve it. You're sort of assuming they'll all do the same thing, but they don't. They don't. And that could be the complicated bit, but I'll say again that...

Danny Lee (33:52)
No.

Michael Venner (33:57)
you just break it down into the simple activities like just the sales bit like you said there's an inquiry from somewhere and there's a decision on how much you're going to charge and then you send it to the customer and then they'll accept it or not that process or that might look different the function is exactly the same really and how it works

Danny Lee (34:17)
Right?

Michael Venner (34:18)
Really, so yeah,

Danny Lee (34:18)
Yeah.

Michael Venner (34:20)
yeah, I always say to people just break it down into simple terms first of all, grasp that how they get to that answer is almost irrelevant really, because that's just the company specific thing. So yeah, that's good. That's good. So have you managed to use your, I know it's a bit limited at the moment, your experience of auditing into your own business then? Have you been able to sort of adapt into your own consulting business?

Danny Lee (34:46)
Yeah, definitely. The main thing is being able to see that companies do things differently. So I have my own preconceptions of what I think a good management system should look like. I think every consultant has their own version of that. Mine's obviously very much modeled on military aerospace, because that's the world I've been in, which is obviously, as you'll know, lot stricter than the 9001. So it's just...

What it's been good for is understanding that there's different ways of being able to do this and seeing the ways it's done differently has enabled me to be able to adapt to my own clients. And if my way doesn't particularly work for them, it's good because there are other ways of doing this and not to take intellectual property from other companies that have been auditing, right, because that's not good. But draw an inspiration for different things that I've seen and how it can benefit them.

Michael Venner (35:29)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Danny Lee (35:45)
And I'd say one of the key strengths, I think, of my business is the fact that I'm also a third party auditor. So I understand what it is certification bodies are looking for, which makes the systems even stronger in preparation for the audit. So that's why I like to be on both sides of the fence. It scratches that itch for the compliance side of things and the impartiality and the objectiveness, which I really like the whole military side of things.

But then also I get to see best practice in lots of different companies very quickly and that's a real benefit for my clients.

Michael Venner (36:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, good. That's good. So what's the next step? think I know what you're... because we spoke before about June time, is that right? You're going to look at embarking on the aerospace scheme.

Danny Lee (36:29)
That's right.

That's

right. Yeah. So I'm already underway with that. So step one was to do a ISO 9001 pre-assessment before you can then get onto the course, basically. Pass mark was 80%. I've got 96, which is a bit of a good, know, happy with that because I know what I'm talking about. Must do, right? So that's good. So pass that. And then it's a case of doing all of the learning, the pre-course learning before, so going on to the course.

Michael Venner (36:42)
Mm-hmm.

Bye-bye.

Yeah.

Danny Lee (37:01)
So I've made a good start with that and I put out a post on LinkedIn today summarizing what I'd learned from that. very much keen on documenting things as I go as I'm learning it, so I think it benefits other people. So yeah, that was really good. Still quite a bit left to do on that. So I think I've got another eight or nine hours maybe of studying on that. But like I said, I understand the concepts of it because I've been doing it for the last 15 years. It's just terminology, which isn't too difficult to grasp.

Michael Venner (37:11)
documenting your journey.

Yeah,

yeah, and obviously we'll try and get you some audits to some aerospace audits to try and help you with that because it is quite different. Same principles, but we approach it quite differently, I think. So, yeah, you know, I know I'm going to try and send you some dates that are just sort of a diary out. So I'll send you some over. Yeah. Well, we've got that far, but.

Danny Lee (37:35)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that'd be good to learn from the pro. And

yeah, go do some aerospace auditing shadowing, understand how that works in the real world. And then, yeah, onto the course in June. So four days, get that done. Hopefully pass that as well. And then apply for aerospace experienced auditor.

Michael Venner (38:01)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Lee (38:15)
There's a few requirements for that. I've ticked all of them bar one, which is having 20 audits conducted over a minimum of four companies. So, I mean, we should be able to get that covered off ISO 9001. So get those covered off and then yeah, apply for AEA, have that approved and then I'll be your aerospace auditor.

Michael Venner (38:23)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Yeah.

away you go

yeah yeah look forward to it look forward to it there's there's plenty of need out there so yeah that would be good that would be good so what would you say a bit of advice for anyone thinking about going on this journey do it don't do it or do this first do that first what would you what would you kind of say

Danny Lee (38:57)
Hmm.

I would say, so I've kind of got a bit of skin in the game with this. another part of my business is called the consultancy life. And the idea behind that is taking, so for example, quality managers who want to leave their companies as the quality manager and then move over to becoming auditors or consultants at their own company. And there wasn't anybody else that I could find that was doing that. So for a while.

I'll help as many people as I can and provide that service. And my advice to those people have been to, if you want to get into the consultancy, that's fine, but also look at the auditing as well, because not only is it going to help with generating revenue, which is, which is important, obviously, but you get to see both sides of the fence. And I would say if you like structure, if you like compliance, and if you're

kind natured person than auditing's for you, think I've seen it in the military, people that come across very brash gets the auditees backs up and you get nothing. And granted, the client is looking for certification. So they're going to have to give you the information of whether they don't get the certificate, right, provided they conform to the requirements. But I do think you need to be the right type of person. You need to be approachable and friendly.

Michael Venner (40:19)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Lee (40:25)
And I would also say that you need to be very well disciplined as well. You need to make sure that you understand where the lines are. So especially from a consultancy perspective, you're not there to give advice. You're there to gather objective evidence. And so I think if you have those attributes and especially if you're coming from the military world, you'll fit straight into this. yeah, speaking sort of directly to ex-military, this...

this world is completely set up for how we function as ex-military. So if you're, I'm gonna R in, go for it. Yeah, absolutely. And Auva is a good place to start.

Michael Venner (41:01)
Good luck.

Yeah, good. No, I think you made a good point there that auditing is very much personal approach.

thing. If you haven't got the right personality, don't do it. Because you're right, you can't go in, some people have a god-like status, I'm god and everything like that, and you're right, it just puts people's backs up. We're there to do a job, they're there to do a job. We're there just to find out what they're doing and make sure they're compliant with the standards. You don't need to be an arse about it, let's face it. So yeah, you're very true. It's not going to get you anywhere and it doesn't get you the answers you

Danny Lee (41:36)
Still gonna get you anywhere.

Michael Venner (41:40)
want

out the client because they're just going to be very short in their answers and very closed and obviously in the standard we're trained to is ISO 19011 as you know that's what the training course is developed on and in there are characteristics of an auditor and it's are you approachable when the checklist that Terry I don't know if you saw the checklist Terry went through when he was observing you that was all based on ISO 19011 so it's okay how did they conduct themselves were they courageous

Danny Lee (42:07)
Hmm.

Michael Venner (42:10)
but were they resilient, they listening, observant, things like that. They're all traits of a good auditor. So yeah, it's not for everyone. My wife hates it.

She did try it, she said no, not for her, so it doesn't suit everyone. But yeah, I think if you're the right calibre of person, you enjoy that type of, I say inquisitive, you've got to be inquisitive in this, in the world, because you've got to ask the right questions and be interested in what someone's doing, not just ticking a box, but understanding what they're trying to do. Yeah, that makes you a good auditor. So yeah, some good advice there. Cool.

Danny Lee (42:25)
there.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Michael Venner (42:51)
Okay, is there anything else you wanted to add or touch on?

Danny Lee (42:55)
No, just say thank you really to you and your team for supporting me through the journey and I know that it's going to be an enduring journey and especially when it comes to the aerospace side of things. yeah, if anyone is looking to become an auditor and they're looking to freelance or sort of subcontract, then obviously your company is well set up for that. And just give me a shout if you need a hand, anyone that's listening and I can sort of point you in the right direction and give you a helping hand before.

You move on to Auva and get your ticks and get an audit in.

Michael Venner (43:27)
That's it,

We'll put your contact details in the show notes so people can get in touch with you. yeah, it's been good and I look forward to our ongoing relationship and getting you some more audits and getting you in the system and out on the road as much as possible. yeah, it'll be good. Yeah, that'll be good. So appreciate your time. been good talking to you.

Danny Lee (43:45)
I really appreciate it. Thank very much.

You too. Cheers, Mike.

Michael Venner (43:53)
Cheers.


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Michael Venner

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Danny Lee

Guest