Leading Through the Storm: Construction Leadership Lessons with Nicola Barden

Summary

In this conversation, Michael Venner and Nicola Barden discuss the challenges and dynamics of leadership within the construction industry. They explore the importance of nurturing relationships with customers, suppliers, and employees, as well as the need for continuous investment in business growth and adaptation to market changes. The conversation also touches on corporate responsibility and the significance of maintaining a strong network for support and collaboration.

Takeaways

• Leadership commitment is crucial in the construction industry.
• Understanding ISO standards can enhance business operations.
• The construction sector faces ongoing challenges and uncertainties.
• Maintaining strong customer relationships is essential for business success.
• Supplier relationships are as important as customer relationships.
• Employee engagement is vital for a cohesive work environment.
• Navigating leadership challenges requires support from networks.
• Investing in technology and resources is key for growth.
• Corporate responsibility and sustainability are becoming increasingly important.
• Networking can provide valuable support and insights for leaders.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Leadership in Construction

02:27 Understanding Solid Surface and Its Applications

05:18 Challenges in the Construction Industry

08:05 Navigating Economic Changes as a Leader

10:51 Customer Relationships and Market Dynamics

13:34 The Importance of Supplier Relationships

16:43 Building Trust and Nurturing Connections

21:20 Employee Engagement and Challenges

26:00 Navigating Economic Storms

29:42 Market Competition and Risk Management

31:08 Investing in Business Growth

36:17 Corporate Responsibility and Sustainability

38:12 Leadership in a Family Business

Key Links

Auva Website: www.auva.com

Apple Podcast:  https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/by-all-standards/id1771677594

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/79OUNj3vY9dmESR3okwHJa?si=871837f56dc149b6

LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/company/auva-certification-ltd 

Instagram: @auvacert

Michael Venner:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelvenner-isocertificationexpert/ 

BSF Solid Surfaces LinkedIN:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/bsf-solid-surfaces-ltd-corian-himacs-staron-hanex-tristone-durat-durasein-krion-kerrock/posts/?feedView=all

Nicola Barden LinkedIN:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolabarden-solidsurface-corian-himacs-staron-hanex-durat-krion-tristone-meganite-kerrock-durasein/

BSF Solid Surfaces Website: https://www.bsfsolidsurfaces.com/

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Leadership in Construction
• 2:27 Understanding Solid Surface and Its Applications
• 5:18 Challenges in the Construction Industry
• 8:05 Navigating Economic Changes as a Leader
• 10:51 Customer Relationships and Market Dynamics
• 13:34 The Importance of Supplier Relationships
• 16:43 Building Trust and Nurturing Connections
• 21:20 Employee Engagement and Challenges
• 26:00 Navigating Economic Storms
• 29:42 Market Competition and Risk Management
• 31:08 Investing in Business Growth
• 36:17 Corporate Responsibility and Sustainability
• 38:12 Leadership in a Family Business

Transcript

Michael Venner (00:17)
Okay welcome everybody and to the next episode of the podcast. I've lost count of how many we've so I'll just say the next one. I'm going to do something a little bit different this time. A big part of ISO standards is leadership commitment and participation. So we're going to do a little bit different and we're going to speak to Nicola who I'll introduce in a second.

We're going to have a little chat about a leadership interview basically, or mock one up on the trials and tribulations in the construction industry really. So a little bit different, we'll see how it goes. We'll just have a little chat and organisations have to go through the context, risk and interested parties scenario in their ISO standards. So we're going to kind of do that a little bit. Okay, so Nicola, if you wanted to introduce yourself.

Nicola Barden (01:13)
Okay, hi Mike. So I'm Nicola from BSF Solid Surfaces. I run a family-run business with my brother Paul which basically makes very beautiful high-end work tops, reception desks, wash troughs and all sorts of other things for a product called Solid Surface. The biggest question here is what is Solid Surface? And the answer is it's basically a man-made stone that you can curve and shape into beautiful items that you

probably don't even realise you notice and see every single day. So if you think of Starbucks or Costa Coffee, they have the server counters made out of it, but equally we've worked in places like the OXO Tower producing their high-end bar tops. So that's me, but second generation family business, working with my brother Paul, which brings its own set of challenges.

Michael Venner (01:58)
Doesn't it just? I've probably been auditing you 20 years I'm guessing? that? Where's your father first?

Nicola Barden (01:59)
Indeed.

It's around 20 years, it's a long time.

my father first, yeah, father first, my parents started the business in 1998 as an offshoot of a shop fitting firm that they had for about 20, 30 years prior to that. And I joined them 25 years ago. yes, ISO has been a big part of our journey going forward really. And it's made a big difference to how we do business over the years.

Michael Venner (02:27)
Now you've got ISO 9001 and you've just got ISO 14001

Nicola Barden (02:32)
We have, very proud to say that we finally achieved that this year after putting it off for a long time and finally bit the bullet and did it and we passed which was brilliant, amazing.

Michael Venner (02:42)
I think like say solid surfaces people probably don't understand what that is do they really? But I like going around and spotting it now. Now I know what it is!

Nicola Barden (02:47)
No. No.

It is, it's the invisible product that once you've seen it you can't unsee it and that's just how it works. and it's amazing how much you probably, it's everywhere. Like I say even if you go to somewhere like Westfield Shopping Centre you will definitely see it even if you don't realise it. So yes, it's everywhere.

Michael Venner (02:58)
Yeah.

Yeah,

it is everywhere. Yeah, I like the egg you done for Molton Brown Yeah, that was cool.

Nicola Barden (03:15)
Molten Brown. Yeah, that's

a really cool one. Yeah. I like those cool projects. They keep us on our toes.

Michael Venner (03:20)
Yeah.

Yeah, but obviously you're very heavily in construction. You rely heavily on the construction sector.

Nicola Barden (03:31)
We do, we do, because the way it works quite often is wherever there's a project with solid surface on the interior fit out side there'll be a construction firm that will have been building the shell and core and will probably be involved in if they're building the rest of the building they're involved with the whole intricacies. So it isn't just about the actual physical build it's about what goes inside and it all has to form part and parcel of what they need, it matters.

you know, what's inside has an impact on whether they're going to get their BREEAM rating or whether they're going to meet their targets. So it all has to be accommodated for. And it's a tenuous industry which has been struggling for a few years, as we all know. So it's been difficult. I can't lie.

Michael Venner (04:16)
I think construction generally has been struggling for quite a few years. I remember from 2008 it's still not come back really.

Nicola Barden (04:23)
Yeah.

It never really recovered and I think you get your next big casualty if you like. So you have 2008 with the recession, then you have the very big casualties such as Carillion and then obviously this year we've had ISG and it's like you get these Goliaths and unfortunately when they're so large they can take such a lot of people at the same time and the risk is greater when they have so many projects under their remit.

So that's what makes it difficult, I think, for people to handle.

Michael Venner (04:57)
yeah, because how many employees have you got? Just to give people a bit of context.

Nicola Barden (05:01)
us.

We've got 14 employees, we've got eight fabricators and there's five of us in the office and then my father works part-time at home and then we have three subcontractors that go on site for us.

Michael Venner (05:12)
roughly who are the customer base? they the big construction companies or smaller ones?

Nicola Barden (05:18)
Not directly,

no. We deal with probably more of the mid-tier contractors. So you have some specialist contractors in there, joinery contractors, washroom contractors. We do a lot of work with interior fit-out companies, particularly in London, because we're so very close to London. So it just depends on the kind of work that's out there. But I would say our core business is interior fit-out.

Michael Venner (05:43)
Yeah, and I guess people renew them quite often don't they, the interiors?

Nicola Barden (05:47)
Every five or so years, yeah, every five or so years. So it is revolving all the time. There is something always on the bubble, particularly in London. So, and like I say, we're very close proximity. So it does make sense for us to be, that we are playing ground if you like.

Michael Venner (06:03)
So do you go back to the same building after when they decide to refit it, of six, seven years after or something? Does that happen often?

Nicola Barden (06:10)
Not very,

not really, not very often. It might happen a different floor, but no, not really. So I haven't really noticed particularly that revisiting, but it doesn't mean they're not being redone. It just means that another element might be being changed.

Michael Venner (06:25)
Interesting. OK, so we're going to dig a little bit into what you're facing at the moment. And it just be yourself, it'll a lot of other organisations in the construction sector really. So this will fit a lot of organisations really, wouldn't it?

Nicola Barden (06:36)
Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a big topic isn't it at the moment there's so much we're facing. We've had a difficult year with regard to lots of productivity holes caused by delays in actual jobs moving forward. So obviously they were delayed at the beginning because of the election. People started to get a bit more comfortable if you like. Now they've changed things like the employment law and of course we've had the budget.

these will now have more of an impact and it's a perfect storm because we're trying to grow and survive and thrive and then you've got these things that you now need to factor in that you didn't need to factor in before. It's all at the same time, isn't it? They say you can't eat an apple pie all by itself with one mouthful but we're expected to accommodate for day one changes plus NI changes plus a varied...

very turbulent marketplace. So there's an awful lot for business owners, particularly in this industry, to be mindful of. Because, you know, we're people as well, with personal lives, know, mental health to consider. It isn't, we're not robots, so we do need to be safeguarding ourselves because we're no good to other people if we're not looking after ourselves either. So it is challenging. It is challenging and you've just got to try and keep a level head and think about what you can.

You can't control everything, so what can you control and control that?

Michael Venner (08:08)
Yeah, there's always something isn't there? You never get a nice six months where there's nothing changing for everyone really economically, like say the election and then the budgets and things like that. So it's quite hard to keep on top of.

Nicola Barden (08:10)
always.

No. No. No. No. No.

Yeah,

since 2020, it's been like this, hasn't it really? It's been like one thing after another, you know, beginning with the pandemic, you know, all of those, the drive that brought us, then you've got the wars, then you've got all the other bits and pieces. It's kind of like you think everything's levelling off a little bit and then bang, something comes out of field to give you a bit of a surprise. So you just kind of got to roll with it, roll with the punches. What else can you do?

Michael Venner (08:48)
How do you as a leader though keep on top of all those changes that are coming?

Nicola Barden (08:53)
Well, with help, to be honest, over the years I've had to understand my limitations. So I do use an external HR consultant who has been brilliant and she keeps us within where we need to be and ideally helps us push forward. Things like monitoring the budget, I've been, I watched it, like many of us did.

I've been following a lot of people and listening to a lot of things and just basically trying to keep abreast, you know, speak to my accountant, keep on top of what I need to do, have things in place to manage expectations. But it's a shame because the consequence of the two actions together, know, the day one thing and the budget are that a lot of business owners are going to be reluctant to take on people. So the employment

Michael Venner (09:45)
Hmm.

Nicola Barden (09:46)
is going to dwindle, isn't it? People aren't going to take the risk. Because there's a lot of risk now attached to giving someone opportunity. And I think that's one of the biggest shame that's come out of this, really. But I'll see what happens. See if anybody makes any reversal decisions in the fullness of time when it doesn't quite work how they anticipated. So.

Michael Venner (09:56)
Mm.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, we'll see. So obviously

a big part of running a business is understanding the customers, isn't it? And what they're up to. How are your customers at the moment? Are they struggling as well?

Nicola Barden (10:19)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

No, most of them appear to be coming out the other side of whatever difficulties they may have had. We were aware of those that were in the same position as us, where it had been quiet and they were waiting for things to break. I do think it doesn't hurt to reach out to your clients every so often and just check in, see if they're okay. Because some of them were hurt by the ISG and obviously now everyone's waiting to see how that unfolds and who's going to pick up that business.

Are they still in the frame for the work they should have received? If they've won an order, will they still receive the order? That sort of thing. Yeah, I just think they're all doing the same thing that we are, keeping an eye on all the factors and keeping your supply chain quite close, particularly if you've worked hard to create it, is something many of them are focused on. So it's not been as bad as it could be.

Michael Venner (11:17)
So do you actively speak to your customers then on a regular basis? Yeah. Not all of them I guess but...

Nicola Barden (11:20)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's always been our policy to do so.

You select those, don't you? mean, obviously there are some that you don't have that relationship with, but those that we do have a relationship with. But I don't just speak to clients, I speak to other competitors as well. You know, we chew the fat and discuss what the impact has been, you know, in terms of if they've had delays with material, or if their jobs have been delayed, and just to see, you know, how the land lies for all of us.

gives you a better idea of what the marketplace is doing as well, which doesn't hurt at the end of the day, knowledge is power. But also, it's nice to be supported. So even if it's only a kind word, it's nice to be supported and to be supportive.

Michael Venner (12:02)
It's nice to know you're not the only one that's going through something isn't it sometimes.

Nicola Barden (12:07)
It is, it is. And to know that there's light at the end of the tunnel because the chances are if one's really busy then the rest of us will become really busy. Because there's always a lot of work, you know, if one person's really struggling with loads of work it will need to be done, won't it? So it's nice to hear that the market is moving in the right direction.

Michael Venner (12:28)
So do you focus more on nurturing the current relationships or looking for new customers or a bit of both?

Nicola Barden (12:35)
No, we do both. We do both. We nurture our current base. We have things in place. We do regular follow-ups on our quotes. We nurture them through the process. If they buy from us or not, we nurture them anyway. And then they get added to our mailing list. So then they'll get regular touch points from us. And then we obviously actively look to bring in new clients. So an old client is just a new client waiting to come back into your...

into your stable if you like and a new client is someone that doesn't know they like you yet. So it's always about getting to make new friends really and see how you can grow together.

Michael Venner (13:11)
like that one. I have steal that one.

Nicola Barden (13:14)
It's true though isn't it, you don't know what you don't know, don't know who you're going to like until you meet them so give everyone an equal chance.

Michael Venner (13:18)
Yeah, that's true.

That's true. Obviously we know each other, but a lot of what you do to try and get those relationships is networking, isn't it? You're quite active and going out and some of the forums and meetings and things like that. You try and get active in the industry, don't you?

Nicola Barden (13:29)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah. I do believe that people buy from people. And a very lovely lady said to me once that you can't connect with someone on a heart basis. And the heart talks as much as the brain to another person. You can't connect the same way through Zoom as you can in person. So it's important to try get out and about and meet people and have those relationships with people.

I just think that once you get to know someone it's easier to do business with them because if you've got a bit of common ground and you can have a laugh and have a conversation it just makes them feel more confident. You're a real person, you're not, you know, you're someone that gives a damn about their business, gives a damn about what they want to achieve and you're on the same team. But you can't translate that over an email. you know, and phone calls work as well. I mean phone calls is, if I can't get out to see somebody I'm a very big advocate of using the phone.

Michael Venner (14:22)
No.

Nicola Barden (14:29)
and I'm concerned for the younger generations that that's a skill that they're losing which, you know, would pay them to actually nurture. So nothing beats human connection, does it?

Michael Venner (14:41)
Hmm...

100 %... Yeah, you can't do over Zoom, like you say, meetings online. It's okay, I think it's okay once you've built that relationship and you want to have a quick catch-up or you know, talk about something. But I think when you're first in that process of nurturing a relationship with a potentially new client, then you've got to go out and see them, I think.

Nicola Barden (14:50)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

It really doesn't hurt. They see you as a human being. They see you as someone that has a sense of humour or someone that gives, you know, gives a damn about them. It matters. People want to feel cared for, don't they? I mean, that is really all it's about. We all want to be seen. We all want to be heard and we all want to be cared about. So put a little bit of effort in and it does go a long way. I mean, how do you feel when someone asks you, how are you? You know, and then genuinely wants to know, how are you? It matters. It makes you feel better.

So, and it's not hard. It's not hard thing to do. So, yeah. No, it is something on the Big Advocate.

Michael Venner (15:29)
Hmm.

Do

find that clients don't want you to go on site to see them now? Or are they all kind of welcome to it? No? OK. Because client I was at today was like, just don't want us to come and see them. They just want to do it all over Teams and things like that. I'm like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they just, I haven't got time for that. do it Teams. So I thought it was quite unusual.

Nicola Barden (15:39)
I've not had anyone. Yeah, I find most people welcoming.

Really?

I think that's unusual and I think also I think there's a misconception that you can save time doing things over teams. You can't, not really, because sometimes it means that you've got to go away and find something out but maybe if you're sitting in front of each other you can hash that problem out quickly because you're together, it just makes a different dynamic. And it's more enjoyable anyway isn't it, doing something in person. So think of the ideas that you've probably given them today that they wouldn't have even...

Michael Venner (16:17)
Yeah.

Yeah, very true.

Nicola Barden (16:24)
had access to if it was only a very quick call over teams.

Michael Venner (16:28)
Yeah, no, very true, very true. Yeah. no, I prefer doing everything face to face. Yeah, it's much better. Much better. So obviously a big, you know, big part of your business is customers and then there's another big part of yours is suppliers as well. So how are you sort of managing those at the moment? Any problems around that?

Nicola Barden (16:44)
Yes.

same way I do customers.

Suppliers has been a difficult one this year, it's been different. It's just, I don't know, again it's obviously a part and parcel of the industry but one of our largest suppliers, IDS, went bust in August which was very sad and meant that we no longer had access to a product called Jurisim. So having been offering this product for some time to clients now it's not simply

available, it will be available again, but it just means a whole new process of learning someone's way and all the rest of it. And likewise, Kerok that we've been buying, that's also a moving distributor. having a relationship with a supplier matters because if you need a favour or they need a favour or you just need information, when you've got that relationship you can ask those questions. When you're talking to someone that's never spoken to you before, yeah they're going to help you.

it's just not quite the same. you know, I feel like cultivating those relationships means that if they get a lead or they know someone that's looking for a fabricator, we're much more likely to be the person they recommend. Because, like I say, humans look after humans, you know, and if you're just a bod that they, you know, don't know or they think is not very nice, then perhaps they're not going to pass it your direction.

So, or look after you when you're finding yourself in a little bit of trouble and you need some help out. And it happens to the best of us. A job might come in today and I need the material tomorrow and I need to call in a favour. Well, that's when I need to have been, you know, creating a relationship with those people to be able to ask for that.

Michael Venner (18:23)
100 % I don't I don't think people appreciate what it takes to build those relationships with suppliers they look at it as a transactional relationship them and us we just buy stuff and things like that and I don't think enough organisations kind of think about nurturing those relationships building that up so that you can you know lean on them when you need to I think it's important

Nicola Barden (18:46)
Yeah, and then they can lean. Sorry, Mike I didn't mean to speak over you then. But

then they can lean on us too. And then there's a trust there, isn't there? When you say you're going to do something, they trust you. Whereas if they've generated a spec, they trust that we will follow the spec through and we give them the reason not to. Whereas if someone else was to win it, they might be nervous and they might interfere. And that might change the whole dynamic of that transaction and that process.

It is worth it. think nurturing relationships is key to business.

Michael Venner (19:19)
So you think suppliers are just as important as customers?

Nicola Barden (19:22)
You can't supply anything to a client without buying it from a supplier. So from that point of view, and people don't have to sell to you. So if your supplier decided that, know what, I don't like them, I don't want to supply to them, and they're prepared to cut their nose off despite their face, which some people are, then you're left without any way of being able to do business with the client. So...

I think all people are. I also think that you don't know who you're dealing with and someone who may be a supplier today may well be your customer of the future. So if you treat everyone equally and as nice as you can, I mean, we all have off days. I'm not saying I'm 100 % nice to everyone all the time, but what I am prepared to do is say I'm sorry if I've been out of line with somebody or if I've, I mean I very rarely lose my temper, but if I've had a whingey whine moment, then I would be prepared to go pick the phone up and go, do you know what, I was a little bit.

Michael Venner (19:55)
Mm-hmm.

Nicola Barden (20:17)
you know, I was a little bit harsh. The times I've been told that they didn't even realise I was being harsh because that's nothing compared to what they've encountered by other people. Yeah, definitely. But ultimately, if you treat everyone fairly, then you just, you know, you don't know. The way I approach everything is you don't know who everyone's best friend is, you don't know who their father-in-law is, mother-in-law is, who they rent from, who they... Do know what mean? You don't know their wider circle. So why alienate someone?

Michael Venner (20:24)
Really?

Nicola Barden (20:47)
just because you've made an assumption about who they are. I don't like people doing that about me, so why would I do it about other people?

Michael Venner (20:52)
So do you see your suppliers as you go and visit them just the same way you would with your customers?

Nicola Barden (20:59)
No, I don't.

That's a fair comment actually, I don't, but I do find that they have been coming to visit us more frequently. So they probably view it the same way that we do, that they go out and see their client base and help create a relationship that way. And it does make a difference, it really does. People do, in our office in particular, they do appreciate relationships.

Michael Venner (21:05)
Okay. Okay.

That's good. And obviously another big part is your employees. Isn't it? Obviously that brings its own challenges without naming names or anything like that. The things you're facing at the moment.

Nicola Barden (21:25)
Yes. Yes. Yeah. It does.

Well, we've had a difficult year. It's been up and down, so we've had the busy times, we've had the quiet times. And sometimes I feel like employees, probably because I don't share enough sometimes, don't understand the dynamics of what that actually means to a business. And I think it would pay me to maybe explore that more with them, what they mean to us as fabricators.

But over the last three months we've been making a conscious effort to engage with them or explain to them more, get them involved more. We've got an open door policy anyway, so they come in anyway. But for me, I think it's all about making sure that they are respected.

Michael Venner (22:17)
Yeah, but they're a big part of the business aren't they? Without them you wouldn't be able to service your clients. It all gels together doesn't it?

Nicola Barden (22:22)
same with this exactly

They're all part of the big wheel, aren't they, at end of the day? We need all the spokes, otherwise the wheel can't turn. And the fact that they are who they are and they are how they are, but they're very skilled, very nice guys out there. And my team in here are very good as well. And we are all needed, we're all necessary to the business. yeah.

Michael Venner (22:31)
Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, I suppose with a small business you haven't got... It's not like a big corporation where some people don't have to do any work, they? Let's face it. Big companies, we're small companies, everyone's got to play their parts. Very important that everyone chips in, does their bit towards the same goal.

Nicola Barden (23:02)
Yeah, it is. Yeah,

yeah. Makes a massive difference and you can notice it. If someone isn't pulling their weight or someone's had a couple of off days, mean, yeah, everyone has one off day every so often and that's fine because you kind of go, well, you're obviously not, under the weather or whatever, but if it continues, then someone else has to pick up the weight if they're not doing their part. And it's heavy if you're doing someone else's job as well as your own. yeah, you can't, there's nowhere to hide in here. So, not even for me.

Always.

Michael Venner (23:31)
There's always someone there.

So a big part of kind of those relationships with employees is making sure they're in the same vision or they share the vision or they believe in your vision. Is that something you try and communicate what you're trying to achieve to get them on board?

Nicola Barden (23:45)
Yeah.

I do. I don't... I find that hard. I find that very difficult because... A, because sometimes I find it hard to articulate anyway, that for someone who talks a lot, that is something I find hard to articulate, what my end vision is or what my goal is. But I think it's that for them, everyone goes to work for a different reason, don't they? And there's a million reasons why. It's not just about money.

Michael Venner (24:14)
Mm-hmm.

Nicola Barden (24:16)
So for me, I want to grow the business. I want to keep people employed. I want to be able to, you know, give people that come into the business unskilled or without qualifications the opportunity to have a craft and a skill and all the rest of it. And it's a legacy company. don't want it to, I want it to go on beyond. With second generation, I'd like it to go on beyond. For my guys, I think it's more a case of they do a good job, they like what they do, they're good at what they do, they take pride in it, between the hours of eight and five. And that's it.

and that's their vision, is that they like their lives as they are. They don't necessarily want more responsibility. They enjoy working for us. They like to see their stuff out there and people admiring it and enjoying it, but that for them is enough. So it's not enough for me, but it is enough for them. And I've had to kind of accept that sometimes, that my driver doesn't match their drive.

Michael Venner (25:09)
That's very true. Gary Vaynerchuk, don't you? Yeah, he always says, it's not their company. Don't expect them to do what you do. Don't do the extra hours, work at home on weekends, after hours doing work. You can't expect anyone to do that because it's not their company at the end of the day, is it? Yeah.

Nicola Barden (25:12)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And I think

that's a fair comment, isn't it? I mean, it can be frustrating, but then everyone has a what's in it for them, don't they? And that's the thing, to remember what's in it for them. like I said before, it's not necessarily going to be about money, but they'll still want something for it. Whereas I don't, I just want the business to grow and thrive. So I'm prepared to put that time in because I've got a different set of drivers to them. yeah, money's one of them, but it's definitely not the overriding.

Michael Venner (25:56)
So what's the biggest challenge you're facing at the moment then?

Nicola Barden (26:00)
weathering this storm that we've been presented with by our current government, which is on the back of the fact that it wasn't great. I went to an event two years ago and Sec Newgate, was a guy there called Difid, and he said how it was going to be. And everyone thought he was being the Grim Reaper, if you like, the harbinger of doom.

and everything he said was going to happen happened over the last two years. So I feel like, except we had added things in obviously because of the government and the wars and all the rest of it, I feel like if we can weather the storm to come out the other side floating evenly and in the right direction, then we would have done well because it's not been an easy stretch this year. And then I think, yeah, just...

being able to navigate what comes next because they are full of surprises at the moment, aren't they? So who knows what's going to be next.

Michael Venner (27:03)
So isn't the storm

always going to be there? Is there a calm at the end of it? That's what I think. There's always something. There's always something.

Nicola Barden (27:10)
I

feel like the last four years have been the choppiest though. mean, saying that, had a couple... It has been choppy for quite a long time, ever since the recession really. The first, you know, not the first recession, but the recession of 2008. And I feel like it would be nice to just get to a point where it's a little bit calmer, even if it's only for a few months before it all starts off again. Last year was calmer.

Michael Venner (27:24)
2008

Nicola Barden (27:36)
Even though there were things, there were challenges. For our industry, was calmer, it was busy, people were buoyant, things were moving forward, but then the bottom fell out of the residential market. As everyone started to, you know, the cost of living crisis hit. It hit the residential market, hit, you know, it hit people's pockets. And I'd like to see that people will start to be able to enjoy their lives again and start having the things they like again. So, but you're right, there is always something. And, you know.

it be a shipping crisis or the Suez Canal or the Hootie or take your pick really.

Yep. Yep.

Michael Venner (28:12)
He just said done, I know as I say but you just got to stay dynamic and keep looking for the next opportunity or yeah.

Nicola Barden (28:18)
It's the, exactly. And

it's also being forward thinking, isn't it? So, you know, for example, for us, our material comes from overseas. So some of it comes from the States, some of it comes from South Korea, some of it comes from China. A lot of it will have to come through, you know, on the water across to us and possibly navigate some choppy, choppy seats on its route. We have to factor that in and think, well, okay, how much stock is there? Can we accommodate it? What's the alternative?

So it's staying one step ahead of what might happen. And it does mean you have to be a bit quick on your feet, but I'm agreeing with you. It's all about being dynamic. It's about being forward thinking. It's about what's going to work best for my business because there's no point focusing on the stuff you can't control. You go mad doing that. You just got to focus on what you can get on with. So, yeah.

Michael Venner (29:07)
What's the biggest risk? that one of the same thing or are there more things you're dealing with at the moment from a risk perspective?

Nicola Barden (29:15)
feel like the biggest risk is that there's a lot of fabricators that are trying to vie for the same work, particularly with the residential market being as difficult as it's been. Because that's what's happened is, in our industry, you tend to have a commercial market, which is us, and a residential market, which will be people that service people's homes and kitchen dealers. The kitchen market has really been hit by the whole cost of living crisis.

So as a consequence, the fabricators are fighting for survival. They're coming over into the commercial arena where they wouldn't normally play and in effect, you know, winning work which is great for them, but not so great for the people that normally play in that arena. For me, I feel like I want to de-risk us by actually finding new markets. That's what I've been actively working on, is finding new markets so that we can remain buoyant, irrespective of what happens in the wider world.

So we talked about it before, think, Blue Ocean.

Michael Venner (30:12)
Hmm.

Hmm. That's it, yeah. Now, definitely.

Nicola Barden (30:17)
There's

too much red at the moment, so we need to get out of here.

Michael Venner (30:21)
Sailing

to the sunset

Nicola Barden (30:28)
That would be nice. As long as it wasn't on a dinghy.

Michael Venner (30:32)
yeah that's it sinking one with a hole in it that's it

Nicola Barden (30:35)
Yeah, exactly. I prefer a yacht, please. So, yeah.

Hmm

Michael Venner (30:46)
There's another thing, obviously in all of this you're trying to battle everything, you're having to kind of develop the business still in terms of resources, investment and things like that for continual improvement. can't sit still for too long can you? And I know you've invested quite a bit over the last 12 months to bring certain resources up to a certain level haven't you? Machinery, equipment.

Nicola Barden (31:08)
Yes, yeah.

yeah, I mean, over the last, well, say the last couple of years, we've definitely invested in machinery and equipment. We've been doing things in the factory, like things that are obvious, but like, know, electrics, fix the roof. We've got a fairly new CNC out there that we've, a five axis CNC. And then we've invested in this, well, was about 18 months ago now, a new website. But in this last eight months, we've also had a,

It's almost like having another new website, to be honest. It's a colour selector. So can go on our website and you can pick colours and find what you're looking for. It's a work in progress, a labour of love. I'm still working on it now, but I know. But it's been worth it. It's helpful to our clients, it's helpful to us, and it makes a difference. But I'm a big believer in investing in things that will make the business move forward.

also invested in, we've had videos created, so we've got lots of little videos that were made for us. Even things like sponsorship, so we're involved with networking communities, so doing sponsorship to get the name out there a little bit more. So, because it's all investment, isn't it, in the growth of the business and the, so I'm looking for the education and awareness of not just the business but the industry.

I feel strongly about my industry and I feel strongly about the product and I do feel sometimes it doesn't get the recognition it should. So I'm almost like a one woman crusader trying to tell everyone how amazing it is so that people will see the benefits of using it. It's easy to see the downside of things but if you try and flip what people are, you know, what their understanding is so they grasp it properly. So, I mean there are many ways we use, we choose to communicate that. I another investment we've made is the CPD.

Michael Venner (32:47)
Mm.

Nicola Barden (32:53)
So I go out on a regular basis and deliver training to people about what you can do with the product. So it's basically the good, the bad, the ugly from a fabricator's perspective so that they understand exactly what they're gaining by using it and when to use it and when not to use it. So it's a fair, transparent, honest example.

Michael Venner (33:12)
So it's not teaching the enemy how to do what you do, that's kind of customers about the product.

Nicola Barden (33:19)
No, it's my customers.

Yeah, I go and see customers who often will be, you know, it's not perfect because it doesn't always hit the target. They'll listen and understand while I'm there. But the idea is that they understand what the difference is between our products, Marble Granite, Engineered Stone and all the other products on the marketplace. You know, what sets us apart from each other.

and the advantages and disadvantages of using us. And the idea is that then they make an informed decision about what works for them in terms of the material, the colour, the setting and all the rest of it. And also they understand what they need to have in place when we go to site, if we're to install, because that makes a difference to the overall outcome if they actually do the processes in the correct manner. So the idea is to, you know...

A, they get CPD credits anyway, so it's a good thing for them, but also spreading awareness, because if they don't understand the product, maybe they'll be more inclined to use it more frequently once they get it. And three, it's just kind of making them understand that if they are already using it, they probably only understand the tip of the iceberg, and there's so much more that's available to them as well. So, yeah.

Michael Venner (34:34)
It's you say, it's giving them the information so they can make informed decisions. That's another big part of ISO standards, it? About that communication on the products and it's just another mechanism. So we found that all of those little bits that you do, the website, the color selector, educating, that helps bring in business.

Nicola Barden (34:42)
Yes. Yeah. It is.

definitely, undoubtedly. mean the CPD is quite a good lead magnet really because I can phone up clients and go, you know, why aren't you buying from me? Because I'm quite basic like that. And then I am, why aren't you buying from me? You should be buying from me, I am best. then I'll go into the, like you know, once I've been cheeky I'll go like, have you considered having a CPD? And you know, I can come and talk to your team and I'll happily deliver it and I'll even throw in breakfast or lunch so that you don't...

Michael Venner (35:04)
Blunt.

Nicola Barden (35:19)
you you're not hangry when you're watching me. And then kind of bring that kind of together. So, and that works well. And the color selector has massively boosted things because people like to see what's available and get a good view of, you know, if they put brown in, for example, it is going to give them all the browns of all the materials that's available, not just foisting on them one particular product. So...

and I'm all about trying to give them all the information because we're customer led. So if they want a particular colour and they're looking for a budget, then that's how we try and help them. So, you know, it's serve, not sell, isn't it, at end of the day? You want to make sure they understand and they're happy with what they're, you know, receiving. So, but yeah, the colour selector has done far better than it's exceeded my expectations.

Michael Venner (35:59)
Hmm.

Good, that's good to hear, that's good to hear. So you're doing anything around ESG as well? That kind of seems to be the buzz thing at the moment. It's kind of flowing down and you know a bit of that corporate responsibility and...

Nicola Barden (36:17)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, we are, but I think we don't shout about it enough, but we are looking at things, you know, yeah, sponsoring various things and being mindful of our impact on other people. So, and one of my networking buddies is very keen on that kind of corporate, like you say, corporate responsibility. So, yeah, it is a very big, I don't think I've done enough yet.

to be able to properly comment or I've not got my brain into what I should be doing place. yeah.

Michael Venner (36:59)
Yeah, it's kind of the hot topic that everyone's looking at now, I think.

Nicola Barden (37:04)
Yeah, well sustainability is the hot one for us always, isn't it? So that's one we're always constantly looking at. And I mean, I guess that does come under ESG to a certain extent, but it's not the only thing you can do, is it? yeah. You know, we support things like, obviously autism is close to my heart, so we support things like the Autistic Charity, stuff like that. But yeah, probably need to make a bit more of that.

Michael Venner (37:17)
No.

I think we're all guilty of that though, aren't we? We do a lot of things and we don't necessarily shout about it. It's not a bad thing. keeps you humble.

Nicola Barden (37:32)
Shout, shout, ladder. Thank you.

Yeah, yeah. It does,

I never really think to say anything. And I always feel a bit uncomfortable when I see people that do too much shouting. Like the only reason they're doing it is so they can shout. But at the same token, people like to see that you're doing something. So it is a bit of a fine line, isn't it? Yeah.

Michael Venner (37:53)
Hmm.

yeah definitely

cool okay is there anything else you wanted to add about what you're facing at the moment as a leader especially in the construction sector

Nicola Barden (38:12)
Well, being a leader, feel like, I mean, especially being in family business. my father, David, is a very, very strong character. My brother, Paul, is a very strong character. So am I the leader? I am, to a point, but they're very strong and they very strong opinions. I think at the moment I'm facing that kind of you're responsible for everything and

There's so much changed over the last few years that it's keeping on top of what I'm actually in charge of, like, you know, what I'm responsible for knowing, what I'm responsible for looking after, because, you know, it's not cut and dried. You know, like the day one law, for example, that's a big change that is my responsibility. But two months ago, it was different. you know, like the NI going up last week, that's my responsibility also. So it's...

Michael Venner (38:53)
Hmm.

Nicola Barden (39:03)
It can be tough sometimes because everyone looks to you. But who do I look to? You know, when you're there, like, you know, send a few, you know, a few prayers up and hope for some help. I don't know, but yeah. And my father's retired, so it's not, I can't really expect him to be getting involved all the time. So.

Michael Venner (39:08)
This

Yeah.

It can't

be lonely at the top to be fair, which is why think finding the right networks can help because the one we go to, a lot of people share the same pain of being through it, if not already going through it, you realise you're not alone. You're not alone.

Nicola Barden (39:41)
Yeah. No,

that's very true. mean, last week, the guy who runs it did a, he put something on our group and I messaged him and it was very, it was fortuitous because then he phoned me to check in and talk me through some stuff and it did remind me of the benefits of having a wider circle of people that are in the same kind of position, you know, even if it is just to share your woes.

Michael Venner (39:50)
Mmm.

Hmm.

Nicola Barden (40:08)
you do have somebody outside of your, you know, because like we said earlier, the people that you employ don't want to hear that you're not in control or that you feel out of control, that you feel nervous or worried or whatever. They don't want to hear that. And you don't want to tell them that because that means they don't feel confident. And I don't want anyone to lose confidence in me just because I'm having a wobble. Because, you know, it is that, isn't it, sometimes. It's just a little wobble. And then you go, like, actually, everything is all right. I can do this, you know.

Michael Venner (40:36)
brush it off.

Nicola Barden (40:38)
Exactly, puff up, let's go. Pick up your tomahawk and you're ready for another day. So, not that I'm suggesting that I should be fighting all the time. So, but yeah.

Michael Venner (40:40)
That's Yeah, it's funny I only just saw that message that you were talking about earlier actually. Yeah I've missed it but I know the one you're talking about.

Nicola Barden (40:54)
Yeah, yeah, no it was very, it was very well timed that one. So yes, so there you go.

Michael Venner (41:01)
Cool.

Brilliant. Well, appreciate your time. been interesting as always. Anything you want to add? How can people get hold of you?

Nicola Barden (41:05)
Thank you.

Well, you can get me on any of my channels because I'm a prolific networker and I'm... I am prolific. So I'm prolific networker and I'm also prolifically on LinkedIn. So if you want to find me, I am on LinkedIn and I'm wearing a bright green dress, so it's very difficult not to see me. And I'll be more than happy to connect and share information and what have you. You can email me. Do I need to say my email address or will it be at the bottom? OK, perfect.

Michael Venner (41:16)
You are prolific.

I can put it in the bottom, that's fine.

Nicola Barden (41:39)
So you can email me, connect with me on LinkedIn, follow me on LinkedIn, go to the company page or any of the networking events. If you happen to be in London, check them out. There's BITTA, B-I-T-A, Property Connect and various others that I generally turn up to. And if you're in property, they're pretty good anyway for you to maybe go and have a look at. So it'd be good for you to expand your network maybe. So there you go.

Michael Venner (41:59)
Mm.

Cool,

brilliant! Thanks for your time. I will catch up again soon.

Nicola Barden (42:06)
No, you're very welcome. Thank you, Mike.

Okay, brilliant.