The Importance of Human Factors

Summary
In this engaging conversation, Michael Venner and Wayne discuss their experiences in the industry, touching on various themes such as productivity, the role of AI, challenges in standard practices, and the importance of documentation and communication within teams. They share personal anecdotes and insights, making the discussion relatable and informative for listeners interested in industry dynamics and personal productivity techniques.

Takeaways

• The environment can significantly impact productivity.
• Standard practices often face challenges due to monotony.
• AI is becoming increasingly relevant in modern work.
• Effective documentation is crucial for team communication.
• Focus techniques can enhance individual performance.
• Understanding system failures is key to improvement.
• Language barriers can affect team dynamics.
• Personal anecdotes can provide valuable insights.
• Industry experiences can inform best practices.
• Continuous learning is essential in any field.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Human Factors
03:21 Understanding Human Factors in Aerospace
06:50 Importance of Human Factors
08:03 The Dirty Dozen and Magnificent Seven
12:20 Complacency and Norms in the Workplace
17:59 Resource Issues and Solutions
20:23 Distraction and Focus in Work Environments
31:34 Implementing Human Factors in Organizations
34:15 Leadership's Role in Human Factors
38:15 The Swiss Cheese Model of Safety
47:39 Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Human Factors
• 3:21 Understanding Human Factors in Aerospace
• 6:50 Importance of Human Factors
• 8:03 The Dirty Dozen and Magnificent Seven
• 12:30 Complacency and Norms in the Workplace
• 17:59 Resource Issues and Solutions
• 20:23 Distraction and Focus in Work Environments
• 31:34 Implementing Human Factors in Organizations
• 34:15 Leadership's Role in Human Factors
• 38:15 The Swiss Cheese Model of Safety
• 47:39 Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Transcript

Michael Venner (00:16)
Right, well, hello everyone. This is the next podcast in the series. And we have Wayne, one of my illustrious auditors, contract auditor. I won't big him up too much. He could do that himself. Yeah.

Wayne (00:29)
Yeah, illustrious, yeah.

I'll control you. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Venner (00:36)
That's it. Yeah, so we're both in hotels So a little bit different to the other episodes where we were sitting in the office, but I'm currently in not so well, it's very rainy Poole on a two day two day audit and Wayne is you're in a bit luxurious.

Wayne (00:48)
Yeah.

I'll say luxurious. Yeah. I'm in Amsterdam for a week and I am in a place that is one of these box rooms that you see in Japan and stuff like that. I've not got much headroom. But it's quite no, no, no, I'm not actually a giant. I'm actually four and a half foot.

Michael Venner (01:11)
Yeah, you're not eight feet tall, are you?

You

Wayne (01:22)
Yeah and it's I mean it's it's nice it's it's bigger than bigger than some of the spaces I've slept in so yeah it works it works it is absolutely this this is why we do it isn't it to stay in in boxes

Michael Venner (01:30)
This is the glamorous side of auditing, isn't it, really? That people don't see it. Yeah, yeah.

I think my room is a little bit nicer than your room.

Wayne (01:42)
I was going to say one of us has got a nicer room, haven't they? But this is true. This is true. I also booked the audit on the weekend that they're doing the the Dam to Dam Marathon, I think it's called. So, yeah, which is why there are no hotels available, only hostels and this place. And this place is technically a hostel. Just they put boxes around the beds. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Venner (01:45)
Yeah, well you booked it, you booked your own.

Okay.

up market. Dear dear. Well, what are we going to be talking about today?

Wayne (02:12)
Something like that. Yeah.

So I think we'll have a bit of a chat about human factors and just to kind of help people understand a bit further and yeah, talk about the difference between human factors and human error and all these good things.

Michael Venner (02:33)
So I should probably point out that human factors is more associated with aerospace. Yeah, because that's where it kind of comes from in the first place.

Wayne (02:39)
Yes.

Yeah, but I feel like it's something that all industries can kind of integrate into their systems and their practices because I think it's a good ethos.

Michael Venner (02:51)
It's a good practice. Yeah, no, I agree with that. Yeah, it's just because it's aerospace, it stems from it. There's no harm in implementing it any management system, to be fair.

Wayne (03:00)
No, exactly. And these things do usually trickle down through different engineering practices and different business practices eventually, don't they? So yeah. So why not get a head start? Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Venner (03:08)
Hmm.

That's it, get a head start. Cool. OK, so for people that don't know, what is human factors? Quick synopsis, what it is, what it means.

Wayne (03:21)
So human factors are essentially the human element of the system. When anything, if anything does go wrong, it's the flesh and blood side of things that gets it wrong. They reckon it's about 70 to 80 percent of instance in the aerospace world attributed to human factors. So it's quite a big portion when you think about it.

Michael Venner (03:45)
Wow, that's a lot.

Wayne (03:51)
But yeah, there's kind of a summary of 12 of them that have been kind of figured out by some of the aerospace boffins. yeah, it's something that we try and build into what we do.

Michael Venner (04:08)
It came from Canada didn't it originally, if I remember rightly? Was it Canadian maintenance or something like that, aircraft?

Wayne (04:14)
It was, yeah, it was a while ago. Cause it started off with pilots and aircrew. And then it's kind of trickled down into the engineering world. So through the maintenance engineers on aircraft and then into the manufacturing industry in the supply chain. So yeah, I think it does ring a bell that it's kind of a Canadian.

Michael Venner (04:26)
Hmm.

Yeah, I think that's where originally sort of come about if I remember rightly. Yeah. Yeah. OK.

Wayne (04:44)
Yeah, yeah, but it's a subject I find quite interesting. Of things like this, because it does kind of ask you ask the the the deeper questions as to why things go wrong.

Michael Venner (04:56)
Hmm. I remember a few years ago when we used say human error, human error in non -conformances and things like that. you can't say that, you can't blame a human and things like that. no, actually, you're not blaming the human, you're blaming the system that's basically kind of generated the human error, isn't it, really?

Wayne (05:01)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, and that's that's

No.

Yeah, exactly. it also it's because the human error element is, okay, we've established that the person's done got something wrong. And then the human factor is what what the contributing factor is that that might have caused that human error. And like you said, it's important to note that

the human factor isn't necessarily the root cause because the systems allowed that to happen. So it's not about blaming people. But it's also not about taking responsibility away from people either. It's a fine balance. So yeah.

Michael Venner (05:55)
It's important, is good subject, it's quite a good discussion when you're at clients.

Wayne (05:58)
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah, yeah, and I do have this discussion with a lot of my clients, whether I'm auditing or consulting, it's always an interesting conversation. I still learn about it speaking to clients as well. So because I'm not going to sit here and say that I know every single thing about human factors. I mean, I've had my fair share of interactions with it.

Michael Venner (06:26)
we'll end the podcast now then, shall we? I thought I had an expert on the line!

Wayne (06:27)
Yeah, no, fair enough. I'll give you your money back as well. yeah, definitely.

Michael Venner (06:34)
You

All those audits you've done for me, I'll have the money back. So why is it important then? Why is human factors important? To understand and implement really, I guess.

Wayne (06:50)
Well, it's yeah, I think there's a few reasons why it's important. Like I said, it contributes to quite a big number of incidents that happen in the aerospace industry and probably the wider industry as a whole in terms of commercial or medical or any of these others, but maybe just not documented as much. But

Also, kind of with the result of looking into human factors and stuff like that, you can also bring leadership and the shop floor into more sort of synergy and bring in relationships closer together through the whole business, which kind of it helps with productivity. It helps with so many

aspects of any industry that you're in. Just to push forward that quality and drive a just culture which is another interesting element of it as well.

Michael Venner (07:56)
So it's not just for errors, human factors, then. It's a proactive process as well, then.

Wayne (08:03)
Yeah exactly, exactly. So I mentioned about the the dirty dozen human factors but there's also the magnificent seven which are seven human factors that have been determined that they're actually positive. So positive reinforcement of quality and positive commitment to education and like I say they're just culture which used to be called the no blame culture.

So which essentially gives anybody at work the confidence that they can come forward having either been witnessed or made an error knowing that they're not going to be punished in an undue way. It's kind of again not blaming the person, blaming the system, but understanding the person element to it. So.

Yeah, which ultimately is what we need because, you know, if Joe blogs gets something wrong on the shop floor, but isn't confident enough to come forward and say something's happened, that issue could end up on a piece of equipment or in something that could be safety critical. You know, it could be something that can.

Michael Venner (09:17)
Yeah, that's a very good point. I suppose that comes from leadership, doesn't it? Because the amount of times I've been on an audit and you can tell people are little bit nervous to say anything. They don't want to say the wrong things and they tend to hide things, don't they?

Wayne (09:19)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely, yeah, and you can tell when you're in a place and you're talking to people on the shop floor or the leadership team, you can tell if that kind of, if that culture is embedded or not, you know, and the difference is chalk and cheese. And you can see the difference as well in the business performance, which I find quite interesting. People who adopt that kind of

just culture kind of attitudes tend to have a lot better performance in the business and tend to be more successful. Yeah, yeah. So and if not, at that time, certainly go in that way, you know, you kind of kind of walk away with confidence that you go in again the next year, and they're going to be twice as big as they were that year that kind of thing. So

Michael Venner (10:07)
That's interesting.

Wayne (10:26)
I wouldn't say 100 % of the time, certainly the majority of the time, that's the that's the kind of vibe I get from it.

Michael Venner (10:26)
Just for...

Okay, so being more open drives continual improvement, which I suppose it makes sense doesn't it? People coming forward not trying to hide things.

Wayne (10:39)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. it also, also I think it, it helps with with bringing good ideas forward as well. You know, if you feel if your team have got that feeling that they can approach you and not be scorned, then they're going to approach you with good ideas as well as anything that's gone wrong, you know, and you don't know who's

whose head these great ideas are going to be. So I think it's important to have that kind of culture and going back to the human factors. I think that's that's kind of a big part of it really.

Michael Venner (11:18)
Yeah, well yeah, mean even Google Maps, wasn't it? It came from an employee idea, wasn't it? Or something, little experiment they were doing, I think. Yeah, yeah, okay. So you mentioned the Dirty Dozen then. that the movie?

Wayne (11:24)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah. Yes. Sometimes. It depends on what you're looking at. So it's 12 human factors that are kind of all groups of human factors. it's not, you know, these are the only 12, but they're the kind of big groups that you can put them into.

Michael Venner (11:35)
You

Yeah.

Wayne (11:53)
And it's things like fatigue, things like norms, lack of assertiveness, lack of knowledge, lack of communication. Yeah, so that I can list all 12 if you want. Okay, I have got them written down just so I don't repeat myself. This is something I was taught through my career is not to rely on memory.

Michael Venner (12:05)
Go on, list all the 12, because some people are going to go, what the hell is this? Go on. you cheat.

Wayne (12:20)
and write things down it always helps. So yeah so like I you've got poor communication, lack of communication, complacency, lack of knowledge, distraction, stress, lack of resource, pressure so whether that's time pressure or anything else, lack of teamwork, loss of awareness, accepting norms, fatigue and lack of assertiveness. So those are the 12.

Michael Venner (12:22)
Yeah.

Wayne (12:47)
And I think a couple of the ones that I keep keep talking about is things like complacency. Yeah.

Michael Venner (12:53)
Funny enough, the audit I'm on this week, they do the human factors on all their findings and complacency is the number one thing on their list.

Wayne (12:57)
Mmm.

Yeah. Yeah, I do see that quite a lot. And it's interesting. It's an interesting one, because initially, you can kind of read that and think it's it's that like, I don't really care kind of attitude. But it's not it's not necessarily that it's also, you know, like when you've driven to work, and you do the same route day in, day out, and you get to work, you park up the car, and you you've forgotten the whole journey. Like, how did I get here?

Michael Venner (13:23)
Mm -hmm.

Wayne (13:30)
That's complacency. Yeah, that's complacency. It's that robotic action that we take because it's something that we do day in day out over and over again. And it is something that you see that can be quite easily challenged by just rotating people's work to slightly different things, know, just taking that kind of mundane day to day. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's that's quite an interesting one, I think. And

Michael Venner (13:30)
We laugh, but yeah, you're right, it's bad, isn't it?

like in the monotony, yeah.

Yeah.

Wayne (13:59)
norms as well that kind of how we've always done it. it's always been yeah, the amount of times I've heard that people just say well, it's never been like that before. Or that's how we've always done it. Like, you could say that. But also, you know, we used to drive without seatbelts, you know, we used to

Michael Venner (14:03)
We've always done it that way. That's a great quality classic, isn't it? We've always done it that way.

That's true.

Wayne (14:26)
Yeah, we used to be able to get train bus tickets like bus plane tickets. I'll get there eventually plane plane tickets as if you're getting on the bus and that's that's different now, you know and for the for the right reasons, you know that it's

Michael Venner (14:32)
Yeah.

Yeah

or even not that long ago when we used to... I mean you're a bit younger than me I think but we used go through airports there was no taking your liquid out of your bag they keep flip -flopping yeah but apparently Europe's not interested in that they want to keep it I think they just like creating lines but... you're right on the norms though because... get done a pic on this client but...

Wayne (14:49)
Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, although that's going back now, isn't it? Because they've new machines. Yeah.

Yeah

Michael Venner (15:11)
like this week they've not long had aerospace and there's some of the employees which it takes time I know in a new business and culture change things like that there's a few people like well we've done it this way before what now and they're like well we're now aerospace we've now got to do this yeah but it worked back then you do get that

Wayne (15:14)
Yeah.

Of course. Yeah.

Hmm.

You do, yeah, yeah, you absolutely and even with well established aerospace engineering firms and suppliers, do do still come across it. I've been doing this 30 years and it's always been all right then, you know, but yeah, that's fine. But then then, you know, not not to pick on any of the the big boys in aerospace. But Boeing is a prime example of the we never had, you know.

Michael Venner (15:46)
Mm.

Wayne (16:01)
never happened before they've never had a plugged door fall out of an aircraft before you know so so these things that these things happen and being aware of that complacency is not sorry the norms can actually stop you from from having a plugged door fall out of your aircraft

Michael Venner (16:04)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. mean, I mean, how do you... I suppose fresh people coming into the business can help try and break the norms, I suppose, in a way.

Wayne (16:29)
Yeah, I think I think so and I think yeah, there's there's a number of things that fresh people is definitely an obvious one I'd say and then things like having that communication that open communication with the leadership team. mean the leadership team You go into some places and they don't even know what the shop floor looks like anymore And you've you've lost connection then haven't you? So then you can't you can't really see the live what's going on, you know

Michael Venner (16:49)
Hmm.

Wayne (16:58)
So that's that I think that's that's a good thing to do is just just reconnect with with people reconnect with your team reconnect with with the management team and be open and and honest and not just as a reaction to something not just as a reaction to something going wrong but proactively because again it goes back to that just culture that if you feel like your management team is there and they're

Michael Venner (17:13)
Mm.

active.

Wayne (17:25)
they're in there with you, you feel more obliged to open up to them about any problems or any positive points. So, yeah. yeah.

Michael Venner (17:34)
Good point. So I suppose what's some of the other common ones then I suppose I see in a moment a lot of resource issues. Yeah, so I'm seeing that quite a lot and it's probably been going for quite a few years to be honest, especially in the UK. I think since I don't pick on Brexit or anything, but since Brexit we've lost a lot of resources in this country. A lot of people left when that vote happened and I got a lot of

Wayne (17:43)
Yes, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's true, but also I'd say that it's, I've seen it around the world. You know, I've been to some places outside of Europe, like America and inside of Europe, like in Amsterdam, Germany, Bulgaria, know, these sort of places I've seen the same kind of story. Yeah. So I think it's, that's a difficult one, right? Yeah.

Michael Venner (18:16)
really, okay. So what's the answer? We've got to breed more or...? Because can't just make more people all of sudden, can I suppose AI robots, I suppose.

Wayne (18:28)
Yeah, yeah, I think I think that maybe the answer is to not not focus on on bringing more people in but focus on how you can make systems better and more effective more efficient. So I think if you over focus on that instantly falls into one of the human factors if you over focus on the wrong thing you can get distracted from the real. Yeah, or the problem or real solution or

Michael Venner (18:52)
problem.

Wayne (18:57)
because there are solutions out there like automation is a real solution. And I think it's just the way industries go. They do kind of go up and down, don't they?

Michael Venner (19:07)
That's a good point because where we previously worked together they would just throw more people at it wouldn't they? Instead of actually coming back and saying hang on a minute let's re -look at our systems and is there a better way of doing this streamlining processes they would just throw bodies at it.

Wayne (19:12)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly. you know, saying that you can kind of liken it to the difference between the British military and the American military, not to dig at anybody. But the American military tend to throw a lot of people at a situation whereas the British military tend because we don't have the resource that America do. We have to be a bit more thoughtful of what we do and how we do it and more tactical. So yeah.

Michael Venner (19:43)
resources.

Wayne (19:52)
So I think there's that kind of consideration that there just might not be enough people and think about how we can adapt around that. Yeah, thank you. So I say I wasn't an expert. She called me Dr. Wayne. Yeah.

Michael Venner (20:02)
that's a good point you should teach this or something

So many other common ones that people come up against.

Wayne (20:23)
So I find distraction is another one. And this, again, this is one that can take a couple of different things. So distraction can come from anything. You can have things going on at home. Obviously, as an employee, there's only limited things you can do, right? You can't step into marriage counseling or anything like that if you've got somebody who's having a hard time at home. But you can adapt to what.

Workload you give them you can you can take that kind of if it's something that they can Go from that needs a lot of concentration to something that you can kind of just do in that robotic manner You can you can kind of mitigate against that distraction that lack of focus but also another thing you can do is Is if you've got for an example in a machine shop where you've got somebody who's operating three or more machines

and then they get pulled away to help an apprentice with something and then they come back, you know, and they've been distracted from a task in hand. They could miss out or incorrectly input something in a program and then that's it. Suddenly that part is no good. You know, and something that we that we did when I was in the Navy and working with aircraft. One of the one of the things they did to mitigate that with flight servicing was they give us

like vests to wear when we're flight servicing. that meant that exactly that. Yeah, exactly that. So when you know somebody's got to do a task that you focus on, having a do not disturb sign on your back is a great way of preventing some of that. Come here, mate. Give me a hand with this kind of thing, you know?

Michael Venner (21:53)
it's like, do not disturb this type of thing, is it? Okay.

That's a idea. I might start wearing that in the office. Just all the time, do not disturb.

Wayne (22:11)
You just get it tattooed on your face Yeah, exactly exactly but Yeah, yeah, there's some good I've seen some good things come from from my time in the Navy things like Awareness, you know putting posters on the back of toilet doors, you know, cuz when you go in for To take your five minutes or whatever. You've got got some of that's a read. I'm

Michael Venner (22:22)
That's a good idea that is,

Mm.

Wayne (22:40)
if you're not looking at your phone anyway.

Yeah, yeah, but you know, it's still still that something that's there and, even like well placed posters and well placed information is, I think a lot of people can get notice board blind and see the walk past the same notes for day in, day out, and nothing, you know, not see anything significantly changed, they just walked past it. So

Michael Venner (22:56)
Yeah.

So one of the things I've found on awareness as well is when like a contract changes or something happens, a quantity change or something in the contract or a revision, whatever and it just hasn't flowed through the system, has it? It's kind of stopped. They thought, well hang on, all these people need to be made aware of this and it's just, yes, it's just not happened. It's just not happened.

Wayne (23:13)
Yeah.

Mm

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's another good point actually, like is that the human factors don't just affect the people on the machines on the cutting edge of the tool, you know, the people that are receiving contracts in the reviews, people that are talking to customers, know, people that are buying parts, materials, things like that. It applies to everybody. So, yeah.

Michael Venner (23:52)
It's true because if I'm looking at a new standard or something, know, new accreditation standards come out, I'll always do it at home and I'll turn my phone off, turn my email off, shut my door and I'll just sit there on my own with a highlighter pen just so I can focus for that time making sure, you know, I've covered everything and I'm not getting disturbed or anything like that distraction. So yeah, we can all do it, can't we? Simple things.

Wayne (23:58)
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. That's it. And I think it's important to find the right thing, because that wouldn't work for me, because I couldn't just sit there in a dark room trying to read something. I mean, yeah. That's maybe where I'm going wrong.

Michael Venner (24:29)
I I have the lights on. I can't read it in the dark. Yeah, that's where you're going wrong. You've got your lights off.

Wayne (24:37)
Yeah, okay, yeah, I'll try it again then with the lights on. Yeah, well there you go. Yeah, I'm getting the wrong message.

Michael Venner (24:44)
Try my method next time, yeah.

I suppose it's right though, it's not one size fits all is it really? It's what works for one won't work for another.

Wayne (24:52)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And again, this is going back to the importance of having that relationship with people is how are going to know that you're going to encourage somebody to to come forward? If you don't know how they react to in situations, you don't know anything really about them other than that they're good machinist or a top quality purchaser or

you you don't if you don't know anything about them, you can't you can't really get the best out of them. You know, and I guess that's kind of the lack of knowledge. Human factor then isn't it? Is that you don't because you don't know it's like, you know, you don't if you get a new phone and you don't you know, you've gone from Android to Apple. And then you complain that you can't use it. But it's because you don't know it until you learn it. And you know, not saying that people like phones.

Michael Venner (25:28)
Okay.

So you're saying the knowledge isn't just about doing the job, it's also about knowing the people and what they're like? Okay, that's a good point.

Wayne (25:50)
No, well yeah.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. it is, you know, we can easily focus on the wrong things if we don't broaden our horizons with the way we look at these human factors and the way we look at anything really. need to think outside the box a little bit with them so that we're kind of getting the most out of them because, you know, people are not unlike anything else.

you know, not to be disrespectful or anything, but people are tools in our business, aren't they? You know, and if we don't understand the tools that we're using, it's that lack of knowledge of that use of that tool, isn't it? So, yeah. There we go. See, every day is a school day. Yeah, I'm sorry. I just realized my screen is bouncing about a lot as well because I'm sat on this box bed.

Michael Venner (26:38)
never thought of it that way. See I'm learning, Every day is a school day.

You

Wayne (26:52)
Every time I laugh, he laughs and bounces around with me. Yeah, lack of resource. Need a desk. Need one of these bed desks.

Michael Venner (26:59)
That's it, lack of resources. So you were complacent in booking your hotel. Lack of knowledge, was it?

Wayne (27:07)
that's yeah yeah yeah plenty of human factors there fatigue yeah yeah yeah that's i was just about to say that's an interesting one because it's not just about being sleepy which interestingly somebody picked me up on on a a witness audit i'm not going to go into that though yeah yeah it's not just being being tired it's

Michael Venner (27:13)
Yeah, that's a good one I suppose.

yes.

Wayne (27:33)
You can have it from, know, if you're staring at screen for eight hours a day, your eyes are going to fatigue you. know, your mind's going to fatigue. If you're, if you're a programmer and you're looking at numbers day in, day out, looking at lines of code, day in, day out, you get, you're going to get tired of that. It's going to fatigue you. So you can, again, I know it seems cliche, but taking frequent breaks or, you know, my, my, I used to work for my stepdad before I joined the Navy.

he used to always say to me, used to frustrate me at the time, but now I get it, is that a change is as good as a rest. And it's true, but his change is as good as a rest was moving from using the shovel to using the pickaxe. So it wasn't quite the same. But yeah, so if you change what you do, you move outside of that, even for 10 minutes, know, you know, put something to be if you feel like you and it's that old thing, isn't it?

Michael Venner (28:16)
Okay.

Wayne (28:30)
like you're getting frustrated with something you want to throw your computer across the wall across the room you you take a couple of minutes take a step outside and come back and it all becomes suddenly clear doesn't it

Michael Venner (28:41)
Yeah, very true and I think that's why I run quite a bit and I run and usually if I've got a problem or something I'm trying to face I'll be sitting there and I'll just say like I'm coming back to this tomorrow. It's not urgent I'm gonna come back next morning go for my run and often I just think of the solution there and then it's not always but it definitely helps to change the scenery your mind's in a different place. Yeah

Wayne (28:45)
Right.

Yeah.

No. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Venner (29:08)
definitely helps you know I suppose companies even like say having regular breaks go for a quick coffee break or tea break or cigarette whatever you want to do yeah

Wayne (29:16)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I think it's human nature to hope and focus on certain things. I think you can really focus in on a problem and focus in on that specific problem rather than taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture of it. And with that, you're not really getting to the cause. You can't come up with a solution because you're focusing on this.

this thing and then you take a step back and you realize you've missed a you've missed a space in a in a line of code or you know yeah yeah yeah

Michael Venner (29:50)
mmm yeah pulling your hair out for hours yeah I suppose that's where the teamwork part can come into it I suppose you don't bring in other members into the team to look at a problem that can...

Wayne (29:58)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's why a lot of these industries, especially sort of building components and stuff like that, like maintenance and overhaul and things, they have independent inspections for that reason, you know, to get a second set of eyes on something so that you can see that.

because you can get in there and you can really be in the muck and not seeing everything around you because you're in there, aren't you?

Michael Venner (30:33)
I think, you know, we always get that thing all to desire, don't we? We just walk into a we just stumble on something. And they're like, how do you find that? And it's like all to desire. But it is actually just fresh set of eyes coming in. It's just chance. It's not, know, none of these things are planted. We just find it because fresh eyes, isn't it? Looking at something, looking at a situation, challenging certain things. You know, it's good for all of us, really.

Wayne (30:37)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think it's, I think it is good because you're learning from everybody. And that's why I say that I wouldn't call myself an expert because I, you know, even though I might be well versed in the subject, I mean, we've all got things we can learn, you know, we've all got things we can take away from every interaction we have, you know. So, yeah, yeah.

Michael Venner (31:20)
Yeah, definitely, So how can someone, how can an organisation actually implement human factors? I've always seen it as a, it's after something's gone wrong, but it's also the positives, isn't it, on the proactive approach. How can an organisation sort of go about thinking about human factors and how they can apply it?

Wayne (31:34)
Right.

Yeah

So, so I think that's actually one of the more challenging areas is that application and that that sort of understanding your organisation's understanding of it as well. But just continue training is a really sort of straightforward go to continued awareness, you know, making sure people are aware of what human factors are, because, you know, if, if Joe blogs gets something wrong on the shop floor, he might be able to say straight away.

you know, it's because I got pulled off of this job and I had to come back, you know, and instantly that cuts down a huge amount of your time, your root cause analysis time, because you've got that awareness on the shop floor that they can, they can understand that there are human factors to, to what they do, you know, so yeah, so think that kind of communication that awareness, just ongoing training as well.

Michael Venner (32:32)
Mm.

Wayne (32:39)
I think there's something to be said in ongoing training and something, you know, you can learn something once and then if you don't, keep using it, it will disappear. You know, you'll forget it. It's like learning a language, isn't it? You know, I learned German in school and I used to be really good at it, but then then I stopped using it for years and now I can barely say my name or, you know, not that my name is different.

Michael Venner (32:55)
you

mmmm... is... is your name different in German? Is it

Wayne (33:07)
Yeah, yeah, that's it only the weekends I'm struggling with the English language today. I Yeah, it's too much time in Yeah, so I think it's like yeah because you're not using you're not Using human factors because constantly I you're not not always thinking about it. It's just something that's it's just natural isn't it and If you if you look at them

Michael Venner (33:14)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Wayne (33:36)
written down in front of you, they're obvious. know, it's nothing, it's nothing over scientific, overly scientific. It's nothing, nothing too like, you know, gosh, I didn't even think of that. It's all obvious stuff. So just maintaining that, training and, and like I said earlier, you know, management teams being out on the shop floor and, seeing it and being exposed to it and you know, it drives that and that's kind of what, what we want to have is that just culture.

Michael Venner (33:42)
snow.

Wayne (34:05)
So.

Michael Venner (34:07)
So does it really matter then if leadership's involved in this? It sounds like it kind of needs to stem from leadership a little bit to make sure it's an open, like you say, just culture and things like that.

Wayne (34:15)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Because you're not going to go to your supervisor or your manager and put your hands up and say something's wrong if you feel like you're going to get 10 lash -ins for putting your hands up. let's face it, probably less than 1 % of these issues happened because it was intentional. It's a human error.

Michael Venner (34:30)
Yeah.

Wayne (34:47)
we get things wrong. Yeah, exactly. Most of the time. Yeah, I mean, there's, yeah, intention and error, two different things and 99 .5 .9 % of whatever the exact figure is, is not. As soon you get past one decimal place, I'm But yeah, that is only a minor percentage of people do it.

Michael Venner (34:48)
Yeah, people don't do things wrong on purpose most of the time

That's maths I can't do in my head I'm afraid.

Wayne (35:16)
on purpose. then that at that point, you're looking at a different action, aren't you? You're looking at different avenues, whereas human error, we will get things wrong. I get things wrong, believe it or not, you know. It's, yeah, it's, it's, it's just the way we are. It's the way we built. That's what that makes people wonderful, right? It's what stops us being machines. So we get things wrong. So

Michael Venner (35:30)
No, I don't think it is, you know, yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Wayne (35:44)
Yeah, so encouraging that that, you know, element that people can come forward and be honest and, you know, not see any repercussions that are that are out, you know, that are unnecessary. I think that's the that's the key is that unnecessary thing. Because like I said earlier, it's it's not removing accountability is not removing responsibilities. It's just

identifying the system failings. and it's and it's one of those it's adding that adding to that Swiss cheese model which is another I know right it's just just yeah I just got into my checklist yeah so Swiss cheese model is essentially a layer of defense against so you've got your

Michael Venner (36:23)
You're full of them today, what's the Swiss Cheese? You've written all these down? Have you got like a book there that you take?

Wayne (36:40)
Action and you've got the the event so you've got the instant event or accident event or whatever it is And the swiss cheese model is is each barrier that you put in place to stop that It's like a layer of swiss cheese If you only have one layer of swiss cheese in the way, you've got loads of holes If you put two in you might have a few that still line up if you put three and you might only have a couple that line up So the more layers you put in the less likely you are to have these holes line up, which means the less likely you are to

to have an instance. So things like quality management system is a layer. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Things like in process inspection, then final inspection, then independent inspection. These are three layers that you can add to something. Obviously this depends on resource, but it's just an example of layers in that Swiss cheese model.

Michael Venner (37:13)
Okay, yeah, it's kind of safeguards, yeah. Just putting in multiple safeguards to prevent something happening, yeah.

Gotcha, yeah, should catch it one of those three. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Wayne (37:38)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, so again, not something that people are unaware of, but it's just something that you might not have known had a name. So I'm just making it up, just making it up as I go along. Yeah, if you say it with confidence, people believe you. That's how I've gotten through life so far.

Michael Venner (37:49)
Are you naming all these or are these... You're making it you're going along it. Yeah.

That's it, it was working! You fooled me!

Wayne (38:07)
I know right, I know.

Michael Venner (38:12)
So what's the Magnificent 7? Just going to that.

Wayne (38:15)
So Magnificent 7 is seven things that you can do. like doing that drive for quality, having that kind of quality mindset within the organisation things like training and awareness, all the sort of things that we've talked about, mitigating actions. Yeah.

Michael Venner (38:41)
Okay, the kind of things that help mitigate human or not mitigate human factors, but try to mitigate those errors.

Wayne (38:48)
yeah yeah yeah and it's and and strive the improvement side of them rather than the negative side of them so yeah yeah there is a list somewhere but i didn't write that one down i know i know it is yeah yeah yeah episode three yeah so yeah yeah

Michael Venner (38:58)
okay

you didn't write that one down? That's another podcast for another time, is that what you're saying? That's it. Okay.

Wayne (39:14)
This is a subject that I do find really interesting because it is that, you know, it's understanding Murphy's law that if it's likely to happen, it will happen. And what can we do to stop it? You know, and driving down a little bit further into your root cause analysis and, you know, not just saying human error. Human error can be and that's the other thing, understanding the right human factor.

Michael Venner (39:32)
Yeah. Yeah.

Wayne (39:40)
know if you've got a guy or girl that's that's been doing the job for 30 years and they get something wrong and you say right well we'll do some retraining what's what training are they going to have that's going to make them understand any better what what job they're doing you know you don't unless you know what the human factor is just saying additional training is not it's not always the answer like i say it could be you're taking them away from that task if they're distracted at home you might have given them something a bit

Michael Venner (39:50)
Mmm.

Wayne (40:09)
easier or a bit less thought provoking to do or you know it might be that you you bring on these vests with the do not disturb sign on them you know

Michael Venner (40:20)
So how do they get the right human factor though? Not saying they need retraining. Then, okay, well, what is the answer? How do they find that out? How do they come about that answer?

Wayne (40:23)
And so.

Yeah

So it's kind of that there is you can you can actually get check sheets that can help you get to the to the right human factor. There's this some like if you go to like the EASA they've got some check sheets. There's there's things you can do. It's just kind of understanding the environment around the person. The time of the incident what happens you know was it late on in this shift was it you know.

shift hand over was it you know these sorts of things anything that you can kind of understand about the situation that actually happened at the time the more you can understand about that the more likely you are to find the human factor and using your root cause analysis tools like your five whys you know often people forget to ask why did that person get it wrong you know yeah yeah

Michael Venner (40:58)
Okay.

Okay.

ask the person don't they? Be honest what happened? I was tired, I didn't sleep last night, had a late flight. Yeah, a bit jet lagged.

Wayne (41:28)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And he just got back from the States. Yeah. Yeah. But again, you'll only really get the answer if you've got that just culture. So that's the that's really the most important part is getting the culture that approachable nature from your leadership team so that you can that people are honest about it. They're not going to be honest if they think they're going to get

Get ten lashes for saying that they you know they're having a bad time at home or they're you know slept in or Was on we're on the booze last night or whatever it might be you know they're not gonna you know obviously that one's probably a bit more You know there's a bit more intent in that one, but Yeah, but you know if people don't feel like they can they can safely say the truth about what's gone on

Michael Venner (42:05)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Yes, yeah.

Wayne (42:26)
then you're not really ever going to get to the actual human factor. But you're right, like interviewing the person is something that often people miss and they just assume things. And they forget to ask. No. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's thing, isn't it? Is that there's so many people that are so worried about, you know,

Michael Venner (42:37)
Yeah, yeah. Ask the person, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah, but I don't want to blame them. You're not blaming them. I think that's it. Yeah, you're not blaming them. Just trying to understand the situation, yeah.

Wayne (42:54)
blaming people or you know telling people that they weren't they they don't know like there's a lack of knowledge there you know why are we afraid of this you know why why why can we not be told that we don't really know in detail what we need to do

Michael Venner (43:11)
Yeah, is that my fault or is that your fault for not communicating it to me? wasn't clear instructions. I think I remember a statistic something like only 30 % of all verbal communication is understood. I think there's a statistic around that which tells you you need to write things down sometimes. communication is give me the sort of the documented process or...

Wayne (43:16)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Mmm. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah.

Michael Venner (43:39)
Is the job card detailed enough? That's one I find quite often as well. It's, know, experienced machinists, things like that. If you look at the job card, it's hardly anything on it. And you're relying on that person to which, you know, brilliant engineers, but they're not going to know the conversation that happened in contract review or planning or something, are they? So give them the information down there. Yeah.

Wayne (43:41)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah, also, also, there's interestingly not to go too off piste but with the job cards, I think the detail isn't just telling you your operators or your people on the shop floor, how to do things, it's, it's proving that they've done it, you know, is proving that they've done what's supposed to happen. So that if anything does go wrong, and there's an investigation, it gets to your job card, and they say, Yeah, yeah, you've done everything you can within your power. So

Michael Venner (44:17)
Mm

Wayne (44:31)
gonna get you we're gonna keep looking further rather than get into it and go yeah rather than get into it and saying yeah you didn't actually anodize this part to the right spec you know it's it's it's that kind of is yeah so it's it's the evidence or you you know you've not you've not brought this to the right temperature for the right amount of time or you've not done you know if you've if you've documented that then that's that's

Michael Venner (44:33)
we'll move on yeah

Yeah.

Mm.

Wayne (44:59)
know, in my mind, that's where a route card is for is to document what you've done. Not not instruction of what you I mean, it's a bit of instruction to what you Yeah, yeah. But I think the most important bit is the documenting what you've done. But I think as well going back to that kind of knowing your people is, you know,

Michael Venner (45:04)
Yeah.

It's about both, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

Wayne (45:20)
that training, that telling them, communicating how to do something, can they take that in? You know, because as we know from our days at school, there are different types of learners. There are learners that can read something and digest it. There are learners that need to be shown, learners that need to actually get their hands on something. know, painting everybody with the same brush, one size fits all stuff isn't necessarily going to work.

Michael Venner (45:34)
Yeah, it's very true.

That's very true. Yeah, and you have language barriers as well. Yeah, you've got people working in your organisation from different countries. Yeah, there may be better reading it or verbally or pictures. Yeah, picture diagrams on how to do things. Yeah, something to consider.

Wayne (45:51)
Yeah, you do,

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Interestingly, I was, I did a stage one over in the States, one of your clients actually, and a lot of their operators are from Vietnam and don't speak English. So, or limited English, know, let alone technical English.

when you're looking at wiring looms and stuff like that, there's obviously the technical side of it. So they're having all of their specs and standards and instructions all translated into Vietnamese. Did I say Vietnam or Thailand? right. Okay. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, for a long day. Yeah, so they're getting it. But again, you can't just Google translate that.

Michael Venner (46:36)
Okay, interesting.

Yeah, you said Vietnam.

Alright.

Wayne (46:53)
know because we've all read instructions from things that have come from like china and stuff that's just been google translated and none of it really makes any sense in in real english you know so it's all got it's all got to make sense it's all got to be done properly but it is an interesting challenge i think that's certainly and again that goes back to knowing your business knowing your people you know if you don't know that then how how do you effectively manage that so yeah

Michael Venner (47:01)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Hmm.

Hmm. That's good. Been a good chat

Wayne (47:23)
Yeah, no, I've enjoyed it. I could talk for hours about this, as you can tell. But I probably shouldn't bore everybody to death.

Michael Venner (47:27)
Yeah, we probably could, yeah.

anything else you want to last minute sort of tip bits and tips or anything

Wayne (47:39)
Just kind of summary of our conversation really, just try and drive a just culture in your industry and in your organisation and you will reap the benefits. You'll see the benefits of the people that you employ. people are not just a liability in a business, they're a valuable resource and if you don't use it, you'll lose it, you know. So take advantage of that.

Yeah, but if you want to follow me on LinkedIn or anything like that or just get in touch then then please do Please do it's bz systems bz systems So So it's actually an old old naval term so

Michael Venner (48:11)
What's the company called? What's your... BZ Where did the name come from? I don't think I've ever asked you actually.

Wayne (48:26)
when ships or crews or anybody in the Navy did anything particularly well they'd use the signal flags Bravo Zulu which meant well done. good job. So yeah and it's still the term that gets used in the Navy now so you might get some briefings and the captain will say BZ everyone and you know so yeah so because I wanted to call it the business something that kind of went back to my naval roots but not

Michael Venner (48:36)
Okay.

Alright, okay.

Wayne (48:53)
something that was really obvious, know, so like anchor systems or yeah, especially my first initial being W. Imagine the email there W anchor systems. Yeah, probably not. Yeah. So, yeah, but yeah, get in touch if anybody wants to chat or, you know.

Michael Venner (48:56)
Hmm, just subtle things, yeah. Anchor. Yeah. Yeah, probably doesn't go too well, yeah. Okay, great.

Wayne (49:23)
Want some more information or just want some help with stuff? Yeah. No, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna get out of my box and go and get some fresh air. stretch out a bit. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, if I can say. I've been sat here for a bit. A while now, so.

Michael Venner (49:26)
Brilliant. Appreciate your time, it's been good. In hotels, different parts of the world, so yeah, it's been a little bit different. No, it's been good. Yeah, stretch your legs. Don't blame you. Yeah, so at least you can stand up when you get outside.

Wayne (49:52)
Yeah, all right, well thanks Mike. Yeah, thank you.

Michael Venner (49:54)
Cool, lovely, well appreciate your time Thanks everyone for listening and or watching If you want to follow us that would be really appreciated You can hit the whatever you're watching on Spotify, YouTube or whatever other media you're doing If you subscribe or follow that would be much appreciated and we'll catch you all soon Thank you, cheers Wayne

Wayne (50:16)
All right, cheers.