Surviving an ISO Assessment

This conversation delves into the world of ISO auditing, exploring the evolution of standards, the importance of compliance, and the value of ISO certification. The speakers discuss the preparation required for audits, the significance of building rapport with clients, and the challenges faced during the auditing process. They emphasise the need for open communication and the positive outcomes that can arise from audits, ultimately highlighting the human aspect of the auditing profession.

Takeaways

• ISO auditing is a journey that evolves over time.
• Understanding standards is crucial for effective auditing.
• Non-conformities should be viewed as opportunities for improvement.
• Preparation and planning are essential for successful audits.
• Building rapport with clients can ease the audit process.
• Open and honest communication is key during audits.
• Findings should not be feared; they are part of the process.
• Recognizing the hard work of organizations is important.
• The effectiveness of processes is more important than strict adherence to documentation.
• Auditing is a human-centered process that requires empathy. 

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to ISO Auditing and Personal Journeys
03:08 Understanding Standards and Their Evolution
06:08 Surviving the Audit Process
09:21 Key Tips for Effective Auditing
12:14 Communication and Preparation for Audits
15:08 Building Relationships During Audits
18:14 The Importance of Honesty and Clarity
21:15 Managing Stress and Expectations During Audits
24:08 The Role of Technology in Modern Auditing
27:05 Final Thoughts on Effective Auditing

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to ISO Auditing and Personal Journeys
• 3:08 Understanding Standards and Their Evolution
• 6:08 Surviving the Audit Process
• 9:21 Key Tips for Effective Auditing
• 12:41 Communication and Preparation for Audits
• 15:08 Building Relationships During Audits
• 18:14 The Importance of Honesty and Clarity
• 21:15 Managing Stress and Expectations During Audits
• 24:08 The Role of Technology in Modern Auditing
• 27:05 Final Thoughts on Effective Auditing

Transcript

Michael Venner (00:18)
Hello and welcome to the first ever episode of By All Standards brought to you by Auva Certification. We've been planning these podcasts for quite a while now but never got around to doing them. They might be a load of rubbish but we thought we'll give them a go and try and sprinkle a little bit of insight to clients, consultants and business owners out there. Our first episode will be with myself and Martin Graham, our COO.

and we'll be talking about how to survive an ISO assessment.

Martin Graham (00:53)
Yeah, hi everyone. My name is Martin Graham. I'm the COO at Auva and yeah, I'm basically responsible for the daily operations of the business. Yeah, globally. How long have you been doing this? How did get into it? Yeah, okay. So I've been doing this now for...

Michael Venner (00:51)
Martin, first of all, if you want to introduce yourself. Yeah, I have one.

Yeah, basically responsible for the day operations. Yeah. So how long you been doing this in the quality world and how'd you get into it? Yeah. Okay. So I, I've been doing this now for in the new year will be 23 years when I first started out in industry. Yeah. So February, 2002 was our first joined, previous certification body. And, yeah, it's going to it. I guess, not to say by accident, I was invited into it by, by a colleague.

Martin Graham (01:13)
in the new year will be 23 years when I first started out in industry. So February 2002 was when I first joined, previous certification body. yeah, I got into it, I guess, not to say by accident, I was invited into it by a colleague and dragged into it. Yeah, came in willingly and yeah, just joined it almost. It was an opportunity that arose at the time. I didn't really know much at all about certification and or the industry as such.

Michael Venner (01:30)
dragged into it.

Martin Graham (01:43)
And, yeah, got to know it , went on a lead auditor course and,  did those kinds of things. And I remember driving home quite clearly , before the days of  mobile phones and thinking what on earth is all this, you know, and I remember getting home and seeing Emma , my partner and saying, and I just  don't know what this is, but, yeah, we got through it. Still don't know. Yeah. one day it will become clear, but, yeah, as time went on. it became clear and understood. it. then obviously started auditing. then obviously.

Michael Venner (01:58)
What's his? Still sure. day it will come clear. Yeah, so clear and I understood it. It obviously started orbiting. Obviously, public exposure started the early days of 2001 companies and that's gone on into a conflict to all health and safety and things that we all love to this day. Yeah, but an interesting journey continues to this day. So have you got a favourite standard that you enjoy? I'll be honest.

Martin Graham (02:09)
exposure started off in the early days, little 9001 companies and that's gone on into environmental health and safety and things that we all know and love to this day. yeah, it's been an interesting journey and it continues to this day.

And I'll be honest, think for me, I think that they've got different appeals. think health and safety appeals to me because it kind of, I don't know, it always, it demands that you're always kind of constantly learning like the legislative side of things. And I'm wondering people that it drives people mad to some degree that I know some consultants, drives mad because if there's something that I'm not sure about, I'll look and look not at the client, but from the legislation to try and understand what it's all about. And I think I enjoy that.

Michael Venner (02:27)
For think they've got different feels. think health is safety and philosophy because it kind of, I don't know, it always demands that you constantly learn about the legislative side. I'm wondering if that try to prove the matters under the grid, I would sometimes hope they try to prove it because if there's something that I'm not sure about, would look and look, not to the client, but from legislation to try and understand what it's all about. I think I enjoy that process of understanding something.

Martin Graham (02:52)
that process of understanding something from and understanding the real compliance sort of requirements. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Trying to get to one that's actually what is actually needed here, you know, and that's kind of, I know health and safety, maybe environmental can be quite sort of black and white, you know, I think, but quality obviously appeals as well because you've got to find out about the client, find out about the industry and yeah. And that's so that the whole thing really appeals just that kind of every day is a school. You're learning something every single day, you know, so yeah.

Michael Venner (02:55)
Yeah, of like the regimented.

Martin Graham (03:21)
pills.

Michael Venner (03:22)
See I remember not knowing anything about this as well. It's strange. Yeah, very strange. I think it's one of those industries that you either know it or you don't. Careers teacher. I want to be an ISO auditor.

Martin Graham (03:25)
Strange. I think it's one of those industries that you either know it or you don't. Well, I can't think of anyone at school, when I was at school, or to this day that thinks this is what I want to do as a career. I want to be an ISO Auditor . Well, is it first of all? And then I think do I actually want to do this? yeah, so it's been a long journey. It continues. And obviously the nice thing about the standards is that they evolve, they change, they update. it's not just the same, although it is the same thing.

Michael Venner (03:51)
It's just the same, although it is the same thing, it's not the same thing. Yeah, it's constantly evolving and yeah, there's always something new to learn and like say standards changing. It's the way that it's going, I know it's all about as we go on, it's not just, it's not what's expected of us as auditors, the way that we're expected to audit, rather than the days of just sitting in front of a reams of folders and taking boxes and putting me a cup of tea in once in a while, that's not good, you know, it's very much a...

Martin Graham (03:54)
It's not the same thing. know, if everything is different.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it's the way that we probably talk about it as we go on, it's kind of, it's not just, the what is what's expected of us as auditors, the way that we're expected to audit rather than, you know, the days of just sitting in front of reams of folders and trawling through them and ticking boxes and bring me a cup of tea once in a while. That's, that's long gone You know, it's very much an interactive process with the client, which is probably one the things we'll talk about as we go on. But yeah, it's, and that's what's made it kind of appeals and interesting. You know, it's not just ticking boxes with.

Michael Venner (04:20)
interactive process with the client which is probably one of we'll talk about as we go on. And that's what's made it kind of appeal and interesting, know, it's not just ticking boxes, we've had to evolve. Cool, okay, so what are we going to talk about today? think one of the things we wanted to talk about really was quite a broad subject, kind of surviving kind of an audit really, and there are in a sense of just kind of some of the...

Martin Graham (04:30)
to evolve. Well, I think so. So yeah, there we are. What are we going to talk about? I think one of the things, well, the thing we wanted to talk about really was just it's quite a broad subject, but kind of surviving kind of an audit really, and in the sense of just kind of some of maybe the key things to for clients to think about really, as they go through the process with us and just some of the obviously not exhaustive, but just some of the things that we've noticed over the over the years and things that maybe we've picked up on. Yeah.

Michael Venner (04:48)
Okay, I guess the first thing it was strange one because why would people be listening or watching this? What is an ISO assessment?

Martin Graham (05:03)
Yeah. I suppose it's, it could be, mean, we get a little bit kind of blase about kind of talking about ISO terminology and what they are and what it would is. I think, yeah, one of the key things to kind of surviving in an audit is kind of, you know, understanding, like you say, what it is. it's, I guess from our side of things, it's, it's the process of us.

Michael Venner (05:18)
what they are, what it is. think one of the key things to kind of survive, it is kind of understanding what it is. I guess from our side, is the process plus checking that standard to try and go forward to make sure those standards are being met, compliance and conformance there. So the assessment itself is in just that process of to what degree clients enter the system and then there's an organisation to comply to the standard.

Martin Graham (05:30)
checking against the standards to which the client's going for to making sure those standards are being met and there's compliance and conformance there. so the assessment itself is just that process of to what degree the client's management system and them as an organisation is compliant to the standard. So yeah, that's where it kind of all begins really. Yeah.

Michael Venner (05:48)
I wonder why people go for it as a you know why do people need to get it why do they

Martin Graham (05:56)
I think the main driver is just purely from experience and talking through it. There's a commercial kind of drive behind the whole thing. People ask for things in certain sectors such as construction. It comes up through kind of the pre -qualification process and the tendering process. And it's not necessarily a guarantee, but it can kind of help. It's bit like the Monopoly game, go straight to a certain point, snakes and ladders go up the ladder and it doesn't guarantee.

Michael Venner (06:18)
I find it can open a door. necessarily let you walk through it, but it will open some doors for you.

Martin Graham (06:24)
but it can serve a way to give in clients, customers, confidence that things that you're saying you're doing and you're committing to are actually being done. It's a way of us validating that process. Yeah, absolutely. And as well, I think one of the things that we say to it, it's along these lines of surviving the audit is making sure that you use your system for what it's, what you're trying, don't try and kind of

Michael Venner (06:47)
Okay, so why is it important to

Martin Graham (06:54)
just I'll get it all prepared at the last minute, you know, before the auditor comes in the last week or two, it's kind of part of surviving the processes is making sure the system is being used, you know, and design the system around you as a business rather than letting the standard or an auditor push you in a certain direction is going to be right for you. Certainly. And it becomes more effective. I suppose it's

Michael Venner (07:17)
sort of surviving on my SO assessment I suppose. We all want to get out of it, don't we?

Martin Graham (07:21)
Yeah, coming out the day alive is obviously always a bonus. I guess it's surviving is maybe not, I suppose it's kind of just trying to demystify it to some degree that it's not this kind of unusual thing that we know something about and the client doesn't. I suppose the important thing is to just make sure that you survive it in the sense that you get through it.

in the sense that you're getting some value from it and it's adding value and being effective for you as a business. think that's the, see it necessarily as maybe surviving it, see it as kind of achieving something, that's the way to look at it. So it's not just kind of like, thank goodness that's over for the day. we won't see them again till next year, but that may be part of it. But I think it's part of the process is just to make sure that you as a business understand.

Michael Venner (07:47)
in the sense that you're getting some value from it and it's having an impact on you as a business. think that's the, don't see it necessarily as an expectation, it's of an achievement, something, know, that's the That's a good point, yeah, that's a point. It's not just kind of like, thank goodness that's over for the day, or we'll see you next year, maybe lot of it, but I think it's part of the process just to make sure that you as a business understand what it is you're trying to achieve with this.

Martin Graham (08:12)
what it is you're trying to achieve with this whole thing, know, and communicating that to the business. certainly. Yeah, I certainly think that some organisations are kind of forced down on the route, let's say for commercial reasons, to go and get the standards. Often they don't necessarily see the value or get the value because I think it's a of that work in, work out type thing. Definitely. They do the bare minimum just to get the tick in the box type thing. Yeah. They don't necessarily see the full benefits of the process.

Michael Venner (08:15)
Yeah, I certainly think that some organisations are kind of forced down the route, like you say, for commercial reasons to go and get the standards. And often they don't necessarily see the value or get the value because I think it's a bit of that work in work out type thing. And, you know, they do the bare minimum just to get the tick in the box type thing. And they don't necessarily see the full benefits of the process, I think.

Martin Graham (08:42)
Absolutely. I think it's one of the things I just sort of making some points to talk about really. I guess it's things like fundamental things that have been in stand management system standards forever is things like your internal audits, your management review processes. It's like, don't just do them. there's something to show the auditor. It's kind of do them to be like any, you know, get some value from them, particularly things like the internal audits, because they are your kind of as an organisation, they are your tool to a.

Michael Venner (08:44)
making some points to talk about. Things like fundamental things that stand as wherever you Don't just do them up, there's something to show you. It's kind of do them to be like an executive. Particularly things like the internal audits because they are your kind of A, make sure your system is fine, make sure that it's effective and that it's working.

Martin Graham (09:09)
Make sure your system's compliant, make sure that it's effective and that it's working, you know, and it's, yes, yes, obviously we do need to see them, but we don't necessarily get impressed by no non -conformities, you know, I think sometimes it's one of those things, don't be afraid if your system and your process identifies non -conformities and issues, because it shows that it's working, you know, and it's, yeah, absolutely, yeah. And it is easy.

Michael Venner (09:13)
We have do the same don't we as you know we have findings raised internally on our internal audits quite seriously

Martin Graham (09:37)
Yeah, absolutely. And it is very easy, Mike, as you know, to kind of see these things as a non -performances in particular as a negative thing. And I think part of this kind of, you know, surviving process is to recognise kind of the audit process as a positive thing and even findings as I know, none of us like having having findings raised. It's part and parcel of life, I guess, but it's seeing those findings as a means of improving and kind of not necessarily an adversarial kind of thing. You know, it's really important from my point of view.

Michael Venner (09:42)
non -performance is a negative thing and think part of of survival process is to recognise the audit process as a positive thing and even finding this, know none of us have been having these kinds of in part and part of life I guess because seeing those ideas as a means of improving and not necessarily an adversarial kind of thing is really important to my point of view.

Martin Graham (10:07)
just on the second point there about, management review and so on. Don't just, yeah, see it as a, as a positive process, you know, that things can be achieved from certainly. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure I'd survive on AS assessment, but we'll see. Even from our side of things, but yeah, it's, I think one of the things we always say to people is,

Michael Venner (10:11)
see it as a positive process. OK, so what some of the key tips on surviving an ISO assessment or an aerospace assessment? the differences are there are differences, one of key things...

Martin Graham (10:37)
look at your certification body as a partner, know, although we're obviously, we are independent, we are impartial to the process. But I think the key to kind of survival is just communication, you know, just to ask the certification body, you know, about what the stages are, know, kind of what the process is, what to expect and how to kind of get through that. And I think, yeah, don't be afraid to ask questions, you know, in that regard, you know, it's one of the fundamentals, I would say. Certainly, yeah.

Michael Venner (10:41)
Yeah, it's free true it's communication isn't it and it's not just on the assessment is

Martin Graham (11:06)
certification isn't it? And it's not just on the assessment prior to it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, don't, yeah, obviously part and parcel of what we do as a certification body is to plan the audit. And that doesn't just mean scheduling a date in. That means obviously, you know, planning as in timings and availabilities and so on. So, yeah, one of the key kind of things to getting through the day, if you like, or the days as they may be is to just preparation, you know, kind of getting that, get some making sure that people are available, information is available.

Michael Venner (11:09)
prior to it, isn't it?

Martin Graham (11:35)
People are aware that we're coming along, you know, and then we may wish to talk to them. So yeah, part of that communication is it contributes towards that whole planning process. So yeah, so the certification body will issue you with a plan and yeah, that does that can and is allowed to change, it's yeah, ask them what kind of people they want to see and the information that they're asking for. Yeah.

Michael Venner (11:39)
of that communication is it contributes to the whole planning process. so the certification is what we will issue with the plan and yeah that does hang down with the loudest range but it's yeah obviously all the kind of people that want to see and the information that they've asked for. Okay so the certification body should provide all that beforehand on who they want to see? yeah obviously as well as the practical things such as know dates and the smartphones and so on.

Martin Graham (11:59)
Yeah, absolutely. they will obviously as well as kind of the practical things such as, you know, the dates and the start times and so on. They should provide you, like I say, with a plan of who's coming and who's looking at what part of your system and your operation. And yeah, there's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for things to be moved around, you know, kind of all the running orders can change. From our side of things, it's important that we cover the applicable requirements, but the order is not necessarily critical. So yeah, don't be don't be a

Michael Venner (12:07)
They should provide you with a plan of who's coming and who's part of your system and your operation. yeah, it's nothing more than we're asking things to be moved around. know, of running orders can change. From our side, it's important that we cover applicable requirements, but the orders are necessarily critical. yeah, don't be kind of at that.

Martin Graham (12:29)
Don't be afraid if you like to, it's not just a set in stone thing. It can be amended certainly. I think that's the thing to remember is obviously we recognize and the organisation we're going into, they are a business, they're running day to day.

Michael Venner (12:31)
Yeah, I suppose people think we're a big scary dragon coming in to do an assessment but we're quite human and we things need to move around and we do the plan as best fit. It doesn't always work for the client.

Martin Graham (12:56)
Things don't just stop for us, you know, we're going in. yeah, it's, it's, it's important that they, the client understands that things can be changed, but at the same time, we do need to things to run in an order. And it's important then from a preparedness perspective and getting through the process is to make sure that things do run the information is available. People are available, you know, if we're we've set time, so and so is going to be available. Purchasing is going to be available after lunch. Well, okay. Let's, make sure they kind of are there, you know, don't just.

Michael Venner (12:58)
So, yeah, it's important that the client understands that things can be changed, but at the same time, we do need to run an order. it's important then for the preparedness perspective and getting through the process is to make sure that things do run, that information is available, people are available. know, we've set time aside, so it's to be available after lunch, well, okay, let's make sure they can't have it. Let the order turn up as well.

Martin Graham (13:26)
that the order to turn up and say, they've disappeared now. And it's all they had something else to do. It's well, that can cause delays and that can can cause problems, know, but

Michael Venner (13:27)
disappeared now and it's not entirely obstacle as well. That can cause delays and that can cause problems. Yeah, I've definitely had it where all of a sudden you go on an audit or that you planned it months in advance and all of a sudden people go on holiday or called in sick. If there's part of the stand -up or the process that we can't see that can then potentially cause problems because we can't audit it, assess it, we can't...

Martin Graham (13:41)
Yeah, can and does happen. but ultimately one of problems then is if it's part of the standard or the process that we can't see that can then potentially cause problems, know, because we can't audit it, assess it, can't necessarily make recommendations.

Michael Venner (13:58)
Yeah, so suppose a big part of surviving is make sure the people are there then.

Martin Graham (14:02)
Yeah, absolutely, exactly right. And it's making sure the people that do the job, know, we as auditors like to see the people that involved in the process, you know, although someone may be guiding us and pointing us in the right direction, they may not necessarily be responsible for the day to day. yeah, we need to see the right people at the right time as possible.

Michael Venner (14:25)
Yeah, it is tricky when you're auditing and you want to see a process, that person's not on holiday but I could kind of go through it and then you're going through it and they're a bit iffy, it just does make it complicated doesn't it?

Martin Graham (14:36)
It can cause problems, yeah, yeah. So think that's just, yeah. So kind of mental things at the beginning, part of that, yeah, communicate with the certification body, understand and develop the plan with them, you know, so that you as an organisation can make sure the right people are available at the right time to...

Michael Venner (14:55)
Okay, so we've got kind of communication yeah planning and things that internally planning is there anything else

Martin Graham (14:56)
provide the right information. certainly. Yeah. I think, I think sort of as you're kind of going through the process is make sure people kind of know what it is you're trying to achieve with these things. We spoke earlier on about kind of why people go for certification and ISOs and it's, it's important that the people involved in the process understand

the

Michael Venner (15:25)
the vault

Martin Graham (15:53)
you potentially in kind of getting those points across, you know, I understand. Yes, yeah, you do. Yeah, it's, it's obviously you can't take emotions out of this process necessarily. But obviously, I think you can, because people always react to things in different ways. You get some people are very talkative and sort of engaging. Other people can be a bit tougher. So it's kind of, or maybe a bit less confident maybe in the process. But I think from a

Michael Venner (15:54)
you can't get those points across. Do you get nervous people when you do any of this? Yeah, do. Obviously you can't take your emotions out of this process necessarily. I think you can, people always react to things in different ways. get some people who talk to you and sort of engage you. Other people can be bit tougher. So it's kind of, maybe a bit less confident in the process. I think from a client side, I think it's...

Martin Graham (16:20)
client side of things, it comes back to the point there just about letting people know what's happening. You know, this isn't a surprise, you know, we always give fair warning, we don't turn up unannounced. It's, it's, we always know what's happening. But yeah, I think it's just a case of making sure that people understand. Yeah. What's coming.

Michael Venner (16:22)
So is this something you do as an auditor to kind of try and put people at ease when you're auditing them?

Martin Graham (16:37)
Yes, it's one of the things I always do, make a point of if I'm going there for the first time and certainly an auditee or the organisation is to explain what I'm doing and I always try to say to people we're looking at the process, not the person, you know, and I think that that's kind of, know, obviously we want to understand that that person knows what they're talking about, but it's not about looking at them as individuals, we're looking at processes and how they work and how effective they are.

Michael Venner (16:45)
to explain what I'm doing. I always try to think that we're looking at the process, not the person. think that's kind of, obviously we wouldn't want to understand that that person knows what they're talking about, but it's not about looking at them as individuals. We're looking at processes and how they work and how effective they are. So I think from my side of things, I tend to just explain, there's nothing wrong with having bit of a conversation, get to know someone if there's something that is there, a football or a basketball.

Martin Graham (17:03)
So I think from my side of things, I tend to just explain, you know, kind of, there's nothing wrong, you know, kind of having a bit of a conversation, getting to know someone, if there's something on a, you see a, you know, a football on a desk and you're into football, have a talk about it, you know, there's nothing wrong with human at end of the day, you know, so I think an important part of getting through these processes and coming out positively is to build a relationship, you know, cause then it gives us, you know, that the communication has been a flow and

Michael Venner (17:14)
Yeah, think if you build that little relationship first it puts them at ease, they're a bit more open to the conversation and things like that.

Martin Graham (17:32)
people know what they're talking about.

Yeah, yeah, think just very clear to explain and from our side of things, it's important that we explain what we're doing, why we're doing it. But also as well from the client side of things, don't be afraid to ask why, know, kind of, I'm not, and also as well, don't, don't be afraid to ask, know, I'm not sure, I don't understand that question. I'm sorry. I don't understand. It's not, you know, we're, we're used to what phrasing things in a particular way, know, ISO isms if you like, and, but

Michael Venner (17:43)
but we explain what we're doing, why we're doing it, but also as well, the client side of things, don't be afraid to ask why, know, kind of all... And also, as well, don't be afraid to ask, I don't understand it, I'm sorry, I don't understand, know, we're used to work -phrasing things in particular way, isoisms, if you like, you know, and ultimately, you as a client are not sure, yeah, just to say, I'm sorry, I don't understand, I don't understand the question.

Martin Graham (18:06)
Ultimately, if you as a client, you're not sure, yeah, just, just say, I'm sorry, I don't understand. I don't understand the question, you know, I don't understand, or I don't understand the relevance, you know, because we don't know about you, Mike, but I'm always happy to explain. And I'm always trying to refer back to the standard. is, this is why I'm asking these things because it gives a much better sort of knowledge. So yeah, as a client survival, you know, kind of don't be part of that process is don't worry about.

Michael Venner (18:13)
I don't understand all relevant charities. I don't know about you, but I always happen to explain and always try to refer back to the standards, which is why I'm asking these things, because it gives a much better sort knowledge. yeah, apply and survive. Don't be part of that process. Don't win our asking questions back. know, points of clarification it's actually fine. You know if we don't mind that, you know, we don't know everything, we know an awful lot, but we don't know everything. I don't know if we're part it, but we don't know if we're always happy to kind of answer the questions that you make.

Martin Graham (18:31)
asking questions back, know, points of clarification. It's absolutely fine. You know, we don't mind that, you know, we're, we don't know everything, know an awful lot, but we don't know everything. We're always happy to kind of answer questions that you may have. yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Cause it's, it's important. Just another point really just on that is, you know, as an auditor, if something is going to be

Michael Venner (18:43)
Yeah, and obviously sometimes we don't understand things fully, you know, part of our questioning techniques is we clarify something and we may have it wrong. could be big part of it.

Martin Graham (19:00)
turned into a finding or is coming up as an issue, we want to make sure that you as the auditee as a client, you understand, you know, because it's no good getting to the end of the audit and presenting it and then we've misunderstood something, you know, so it's important that, you know, we understand. yeah, make sure you kind of always keep be honest and truthful and so that we can understand because that'll either lead to, you know, a better understanding on our part and better points of clarification around any findings that may come up. yeah.

Michael Venner (19:11)
Have you ever had anyone try and kind of feed you something they think you want to hear?

Martin Graham (19:39)
I say feed me something. I want to be fed Mike. Yeah, I think it's it's one of the things it's kind of maybe yeah trying to

Michael Venner (19:40)
You can kind of sense from them that they're kind of making something up because I think they know what the answer should be. The way you asked the question.

Martin Graham (19:59)
you something that you want to hear and that can sometimes then just unravel a can of worms, it? know, it can kind of then well, because although we're not certainly not trying to, we're not asking loaded questions or trying to trip people up, sometimes it just through our process of trying to understand if we're not being told something that's connecting up within it makes us kind of think, well, okay, but what about, what about, so yeah, it can be, yeah, I think like it comes back to the point, just be, just be truthful. And, you know, if you don't know, you're not sure.

Michael Venner (20:09)
I'm just trying to trick people up some of the things. Just trying to understand. If we're not being told something, just connect up with it. I think that's what we're Yeah, think that's the point. Just be truthful, and if you don't know, you're not sure. Just say it, or like you said earlier, let me come and talk to someone. It's not my area. I've to them before. I'm not expecting them to know. I was actually saying this to them. I don't do it.

Martin Graham (20:28)
just say, or like you said earlier, let me go and let me go and talk to someone. That's not my area that I'm responsible for. You're not expected to know everything, you know, as an organisation, just say, actually, I don't deal with that. Can I, we need to go and talk to such and such. That's absolutely fine. You know, you're not expected to know everything and get through an audit on your own. You know, it's certainly not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Venner (20:47)
I think be open and honest. think it's kind of the summary of that, isn't it? If you don't know anything, put your hands up. Someone else might know the answer. Don't try and feed us a load of rubbish really, because we sniff it out. Something doesn't sound right.

Martin Graham (20:58)
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, just partly. Yeah, it's part of that process. Yes. And they understand what, yeah, what's being asked of you and kind of why. And if it's not your area or you don't know, then that's fine. You know, it's, it's not gonna, the world's not gonna stop, you know, things will carry on and we can always go down a different route or a different line of questioning and talk or talk to another person. It's absolutely fine. So yeah.

Michael Venner (21:11)
Anything else they they can do on preparing to how to survive it

Martin Graham (21:31)
Yeah, think just practical things such as, know, don't be afraid to take breaks like during an audit, you know, this can be quite an intense process, you know, don't be afraid to sort of take breaks for comfort breaks and drinks and those kinds of things, know, can be practical things such as that, you know, take a breather, go and look into the, yeah, absolutely, yeah, look into the middle distance for five minutes and just clear your head and okay, come back to it, you know, we're not there for eight hours.

Michael Venner (21:40)
Intensive process, know, don't be afraid to take a break, comfort brands, drinks, those kinds of things, know, question things like that, you know, take a breather, don't look at Take a break. absolutely, Look into the middle distance for five minutes, just clear your head about that, even though you've got to there for eight hours, continuing your questions, so yeah, practical things, so it's... Yeah, that's a point. Yeah, just take those breaks, don't worry about the time, it's a make -or -miss, you know, although, you know, it's always nice to get nothing of...

Martin Graham (21:58)
continually questioning. yeah, practical things such as, yeah, yeah, just take those breaks. Don't worry about any findings that may come up, you know, it's, although, you know, it's always nice to get nothing and positive. Invariably, our recommendations are positive, but sometimes they do have findings, but don't be afraid of them, you know, don't be afraid of that process,

Michael Venner (22:10)
positive. Do you find that people sometimes when you mention I've got a finding they sort of panic and you see sweat on their brow they think that's it that's it everything's over.

Martin Graham (22:29)
Yeah, it can be. I think it's just a human thing, isn't it? None of us necessarily like to have failings, if you like, identified. And I think this process he's seen, it's got a lot of stigma attached to it being sort of negative. And you say the word audit and it's like, blimey, know, kind of, it's got that kind of, but I think the way of looking at these things and, you know, kind of surviving and getting through the process is look at it as a means of us.

Michael Venner (22:39)
I think the way of looking at these things is survival is looking at as a means of us using our potential as a potential kind of positive thing.

Martin Graham (22:55)
use us essentially, suppose that's the thing, know, kind of use the knowledge that we've got and the experience and say, well, okay, you know, don't see it the whole process is negative, see it as a, as a potentially kind of positive things. And yeah, it's obviously, yeah, findings do sometimes create work, but that work is not necessarily negative, it can be collected changes and improvements in what you do, you know, we're not there to find fault with it or actually add value, not tell you what to do. But obviously, we can, we take those things into consideration when we are.

Michael Venner (23:09)
Sometimes can work and help work, not necessarily make changes and improvements in what you do. We can find fault with it, we can have value, not tell you what to do. We can take this into consideration. Have you had anyone ever get really sticky or aggressive when you've said, god I'm have to raise something? Have you had that? Sometimes it can be a rough.

Martin Graham (23:24)
We are all the team, you know.

Sometimes it can get bit kind of... don't know, argument is the wrong way, I think it's maybe the thing to remember in that regard is we can't raise things against what we think is good or a good way. We can only raise observations or opportunities for improvement in that regard.

Michael Venner (23:38)
I

Martin Graham (23:57)
if a finding is going to be raised, and this is another thing to remember from organisations, is that we can only raise it against a criteria, and that criteria is the standard or your own procedures or legislation or contractual things. So if there is a point of confrontation, it's just always be sure about, and it comes back to the point about clarifying if a finding is coming up, where does the standard ask for that, you know? So I've never had anything particularly...

Michael Venner (24:10)
So if there is a point of confrontation, it's just to always be sure that it comes back to the point of that curve, like if we're finding ease coming up, where there's standard answer for that, know. I've never had any particularly, well, confrontation. Sometimes it's some discussions that always say that get around certain things, but nothing particularly nasty.

Martin Graham (24:24)
Well, confrontational. Sometimes there's some discussions, so we say, get you going around certain things and it's, but nothing particularly nasty. No blood's been drawn yet.

Michael Venner (24:35)
I think, like you say, back to your point, that if everyone's clear and it's communicated and this is what I'm trying to do and this is what it's not lining up, then it's hard to what can they argue against really, I suppose.

Martin Graham (24:48)
That's exactly it. Yeah. So in terms of part of the survival and kind of process, he's kind of, just if anything's coming up, because it's important that you understand, because it helps you address the issue, but also kind of, know, I didn't understand, didn't realize the standard was actually asking for that, you know, so it's, no, definitely not. No, and I think that's the important thing to remember, you know, it's not about finding fault, it's about kind of, know, we're there to...

Michael Venner (25:05)
We're not out to get anyone.

Martin Graham (25:16)
sort of be positive at end of the day. we do get, you you always enjoy, you know, when you've had a good audit and there's positive recommendations. It's always a nice feeling when you see a company kind of relieved, if you like, that they've gotten through it, but the hard work has been recognized. And I think that's kind of, that's an important word in from our side of things is recognizing the work that's gone in. It not be perfect, but it's an important part of it. So yeah, we do.

Michael Venner (25:33)
side of it is recognising the work that's gone in. That'd be perfect. I mean we go through it ourselves don't we? we have UKAS assessments all the time and looking forward to that. It's quite a stressful time. We get findings and you know it's just like say it's part of process isn't it? Okay so is there anything else to sort of add in there? think basically...

Martin Graham (25:42)
Yeah, we do. We've got a nice week or so, two weeks coming up in the new year. yeah, looking forward to that. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, can be. Yeah, can be.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think, I think basically, you know, I think the main points there are just, yeah, kind of get that, yeah, communication, be prepared, tell your team about kind of what's going on and, yeah. And just sort of tell them not to be worried about if things do get picked up and that's okay. It's not the, if, that's great, that's it can, it can be used as a positive. So, yeah. Ask questions.

Michael Venner (26:03)
Yeah

Martin Graham (26:22)
engage, you know, we're humans, we've got families and interests outside of auditing, I think. I know you're pretty deep into it, Mike, but yeah, we do have a life outside of these things. yeah, obviously we don't want to become, know, like it's about impartiality and objectivity, but we are very, very open to building relationships. And yeah, part of that can survive and getting through the processes. Yeah. Building those relationships. It builds confidence.

Michael Venner (26:33)
Obviously we don't want be done with it, it's about impartiality and activity but we are very very open to building relationships and yeah, half that can survive and get through the processes, yeah building relationships, it builds confidence, it builds, yeah it builds, it will be comfortable with the process system working as it should be. Yeah, don't know about you, I always look for...

Martin Graham (26:50)
that it builds kind of, yeah, it builds, it will be comfortable that if the process, the system's working and it's as it should be. Definitely. I think that's what it comes down to.

Michael Venner (27:02)
signs in the company like things like I see a medal or something or if I see some running shoes or a bike I try and start the conversation to try and build that personal link and it puts people at ease and you this you can build some rapport quite easily I think just personal connections in there and just puts people at ease and makes the audit go a lot smoother.

Martin Graham (27:22)
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think, I know we don't do it so much nowadays, at all, but remote auditing and stuff during lockdown, I think there was some, there was some conversation starters in the backgrounds on them, during them and all, people walking past and there are things and people's, maybe they should have blurred out, won't go into those details, but it's, yeah, I think exactly that. It comes down to a rapport, sort of an engagement. And because I think from our side of things as well, the harder it is for us to get information out, it's

Michael Venner (27:31)
and fully appreciate people with different personalities.

Martin Graham (27:50)
It just makes the whole process kind of drag on, know, and it's, and I fully appreciate it's people, people's people have got different personalities and so on, but it's, yeah, just be open. Be, you know, be as talkative as you feel you can be. You know, you're talking about what you do, not necessarily about you as a person. It's, we're not testing your knowledge. That's the thing, you know, as such we're testing or we're looking, if you like, at the process and how it links from the previous one onto the next step. And that's one of what we're after. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Venner (28:00)
Yeah, I don't like remote audits. I don't think you build relationship when you do remote audits.

Martin Graham (28:21)
No, they're tough. it comes back to the point about, yeah, it's almost impossible. You know, there's clients that, you know, you just don't know, you can talk, but you can't engage. It's a different thing. It's, yeah. Maybe if you've been to a client for a good number of years and you can sort of get straight into it, that's arguably easier, but certainly going into sort of initials and those kinds of things, or, you know, a new client, can, it can be, it's very tough going. Yeah. Very tough going. Yeah.

Michael Venner (28:29)
talk. Yeah, this is tricky. Maybe.

fresh. you're, yeah. Challenging. You said about the person, I remember once I was, I had a remote audit. I actually think it was UKAS And yeah, my son walked in naked. In the middle of a conversations like, but as you say we're all human, we all have lives.

Martin Graham (28:47)
I yeah. Okay. It happens. I think that's it. Yeah, I think that's, that's the thing to remember is kind of, you know, just through, if you're going to boil this down to a point or two, it's kind of, you know, this, yeah.

this is what we do, it's easy for us, but ultimately, you know, it's, it is important, you know, but it's not, it's not the most important thing, you know, it's, it's, it's important for organisations to understand, you know, why they're doing it, what they're trying to achieve and our role in achieving that. But yeah, in terms of surviving and getting through it, it's, yeah, just, I don't want to say enjoy it, but you almost do, it's almost kind of like just, just say, okay, come in here, have a look, you know, see, see what's going on. know, this is what we've done. It might be good enough.

Michael Venner (29:38)
Yeah, we can help the organisation really, can't we really? They're open and yeah.

Martin Graham (29:43)
It might not. Well, how do we get around that then? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know, like you say, we go forward, it's ourselves and it's, invariably things come up and for the, for the very most part they are, you think actually, yeah, that is right. That is, that is, that is fair, you know, and I think that's the thing, you know, as long as the process is fair, you know, there was a phrase, hard to please, but fair. And I think that's kind of, I think that's kind of challenging. The process is challenging because, you know, people spend time and money on these things and it is.

Michael Venner (30:04)
It's hard to please, I think that's kind of challenging. People spend time and money on these things. It can be an anxious time for them, in terms of getting through it, it's normally the effort is considered. We recognise that when it's been made. It's just about the culture of that kind of thing. It's absolutely not that. We're always happy to recognise when it's been made and commitments.

Martin Graham (30:13)
can be an anxious time for them. in terms of getting through it, as long as you put the effort in, we can see that. We recognise effort when it's been made. think that's an important thing as well. It's not just of like, gotcha, that kind of thing. It's absolutely not that at all. We're always happy to recognise effort when it's been made and commitment to the whole thing. And I think just on that, just the...

Michael Venner (30:34)
Yeah, we do see that, you're right. We do see that quite a bit.

Martin Graham (30:39)
kind of the point about kind of the way standards have evolved over the years. We started mentioning that at the beginning, obviously, nowadays, it's there's a big role around kind of leadership within these things and other people within the organisation, not just, you know, a person being audited. Yeah. And I think that's another key thing to remember for organisations is that, yeah, it's not just down to an individual, you know, everyone within the organisation can and arguably should kind of play a part in the process, you know, and it's

Michael Venner (30:39)
I think that's another thing to remember for all organisations is that it's not just down to an individual, everyone is an organisation.

Martin Graham (31:07)
So we look to have those kinds of conversations with various people. yeah, make them aware of what's coming in. The thing is, you've got the ultimate, if you like, cheat sheet from an auditing perspective is if you've got a copy of the standard that tells you what you should be doing, you so as long as you're doing that, it's kind of, well, okay, well, okay, show me where I'm not. I think that's as well, can, we have to put a lot of things in context because the standard.

Michael Venner (31:09)
Yeah.

Martin Graham (31:36)
applies to so many different industries. And we always have to keep things in context and what's relevant to, you know, one person working from the living room, which I know we've audited organisations like that through to big, big organisations. So we always had to be willing to kind of accept that, that contextual kind of thing as well.

Michael Venner (31:39)
Yeah, what's what's important for a big organisation isn't important a smaller one is it?

Martin Graham (31:57)
Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, and I think that that's, that's a good point to remember is that, you know, as long as we can say that the controls and the system is in context and it's relevant and working for you as an organisation. And it's not for us to disprove that it is, that it is or isn't, it's kind of just as long as we can say that it's effective, that's kind of where we go. So yeah, that's an important thing to remember that, you know, well, it's working for us and we can show it to be effective. Well, okay, that's, that's okay, you know? Yeah.

Michael Venner (32:01)
I think some auditors struggle with that so we have to come from a big corporate environment

you know, spent 25 years working in whatever big corporation, then they come into the auditing world and then they go into a smaller organisation I do find they struggle a little bit sometimes because it's like, hang on, where's this? Where's that? Where's that? You know, you might not even have an accounts system, for example, for raising purchase orders you know, it might be manual, you know, things like that.

Martin Graham (32:38)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the biggest kind of things in that sense is maybe the current of standards done away with a lot of, you know, that shall be documented and recorded and all that kinds of things. certain auditors and I know, you know, myself kind of.

Michael Venner (33:00)
and all the content and that kind of things. Certain audiences are self -governing previously and you start to see things written down and documented, like I mentioned earlier, I think for now, as auditors we have to dig a little bit deeper and understand exactly, just because it's not a big thing now, doesn't necessarily mean it's a big one. Maybe it's a big thing because CRMs, and other software things are just ourselves here in the process of holding up.

Martin Graham (33:06)
Previously, you're so used to seeing things written down, documented, you know, like as I mentioned earlier, like rooms of paper on a, on a thing. But now it's like, okay, as auditors now we have to dig a little bit deeper and understand and say, okay, just cause it's not on a piece of paper. Doesn't necessarily mean that it's, that it's wrong. And that may be documented within CRMs and other systems and other software things and so on. Just ourselves, we're in the process of, well, rolling out and using an app, you know, whereas in the past that was all hard copy and it's, it.

Michael Venner (33:30)
Yeah, I had a client a couple of years ago that she they were buying that basically one main supplier, but they were in the Far East

Martin Graham (33:35)
Yeah, technology has evolved. as auditors, I think that's from an organisation's perspective, auditee perspective, is to don't be afraid to put things in a format or in a way that suits them. You know, it works for them. Yeah, works for them.

Michael Venner (34:00)
They were in the UK and they were doing their purchase orders over WhatsApp. It was all text. Just I'll need this, use this number type thing and this is what I want and get it to me by this time. I'm like, all the information's there. can't really, you know, it's right. It's different, but it works and it worked for him. And he says, I'll do a lot of it on the fly and things like that. It works. You know, we've got to be open to that type of thing.

Martin Graham (34:02)
yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah

That's exactly, think kind of the big word in our industry is, know, is it effective? You know, is the process effective in, you know, achieving what it's trying to achieve, be that, you know, quality related. It's obviously, you know, over that entails with regards to customers and so on. But obviously if you're auditing, different standards, know, environmental and health and safety, it's important for the organisation to remember as well as part of this kind of preparedness and survival kind of processes, you know, thinking environmentally it's what, what is the actual end goal here? You know, it's not just about, you know,

Michael Venner (34:31)
Is it effective? it effective in achieving what it's trying to achieve? Quality -related, obviously, know, both laying towers and customers and stuff. also if you want different standards, environmental safety is important for the organisation. And then there's well -to -do, a care -less survival process. I environmentally, what is actually the goal here? Not just making sure it's wasted.

Martin Graham (34:57)
making sure the waste is in the right bin. It's certainly part of it, but it's about the bigger picture. Yeah. I always take it back to, like policy statements. If you, can almost raise any non -performance against the policy, cause that's saying we're going to do these things. Well, okay, let's see how they're actually working. How does your system support those policy statements? What you're trying to achieve, you know, and it's, yeah. So there's, I think that that's a really kind of important part of it is to have organisations to remember, you know, exactly what this is all about, you know, take it, take it, let's take it.

Michael Venner (34:58)
There's a picture.

Martin Graham (35:27)
Don't overcomplicate it. Don't overthink it. think it's easy to, I'm one of the world's, I'm sure, worst overthinkers, you know, and it's really easy to overcomplicate things, but take it back to what we're actually trying to achieve with these things. And yeah, get your head around that. Look at the standards, obviously have access to the standards. It's probably one of the first things that should have been top of the list, you know, get a copy of the standards, you know, and it's not just some kind of weird science that we're getting involved with. It's, well, it is, but it's,

Michael Venner (35:27)
Yeah.

Martin Graham (35:57)
You may have a consultant who point you in  in the right direction, but yeah, even then have a copy of the standard, read through it, get a copy of the status, probably should have been absolutely the top of the list, but yeah, go to copy the standard. Yeah. Yeah. I'll probably get one off of eBay after today. yeah. So I think, yeah. Yeah. Fundamental point really. Yeah. Just, okay. What does this actually mean? What are we trying to achieve here? Yeah. Yeah. Get your head around that. And also as well, it's kind of looking at how you're.

Michael Venner (35:57)
You may have to know. That's very true. That's probably my first question. think when I go to clients. Yeah, so yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Martin Graham (36:26)
what you do already potentially, how that kind of aligns with the standard rather than trying to invent a piece of paper. know sometimes we've gone down the road of how do we solve that? let's just put another box on the form kind of thing. And it's actually that might not be the best way of doing it, you know.

Michael Venner (36:28)
That's very true. Yeah. Yeah, people do like throwing forms in for this Tick in a box type situation, but yeah, the current system may work for it. That's very good point

Martin Graham (36:43)
Yeah. I think that's it. just kind of what's, it comes back to that point about being effective and intended results and those kinds of things. yeah, just on those kinds of things, I just caught a note, a word in my notes about jargon, you know, kind of we'll always try and be as clear as we can. But if we're using something that just doesn't mean anything, you know, it's, we get a little bit blase about things, but because we're using them every day potentially.

Michael Venner (36:59)
Yeah, yeah, I do. It's a big part of the aerospace scheme is to understand what the terminology the client uses. And we try and always approach that process using their terminology. And when we see people's management systems that built around the terminology of the standard,

Martin Graham (37:13)
Okay.

Yeah

Michael Venner (37:27)
kind of challenge them on it. Because I bet I say, all right, I'm to go and ask this person these exact words. And I'll say, OK, what's context the organisation mean? just gets a blank look on their face, really, because it's foreign to them. But if they just use their own language, it's what we do, or whatever they would call it, that will work. It works right. It's not for us to sort of determine what the jargon should be.

Martin Graham (37:50)
Yeah, that's exactly that. That's a good point. It's about our job, as well as obviously looking for compliance and conformance is to look at what the organisation does and how that fits into the standard, you know, that's that's an important part of it. So yeah, you use your own terminology. Absolutely. You know, if we're not sure.

Michael Venner (37:55)
up to them to determine and we know where that fits in the standard really don't we so.

Martin Graham (38:17)
And we'll ask, you know, and that's, that's what we're there. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly it. So it just, yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, mate. Yeah, exactly. Keep it in context. Or if you don't like the word context, you use relevant, you know, keep it relevant to you, you know, kind of make sure it works for you and it's the right size and shapes and that's, and, yeah, important part of it. So yeah, keep, keep it simple. I don't overthink it. Get copies of the standards, you know, kind of get that communication, be prepared.

Michael Venner (38:25)
Write it for you, not for us.

Martin Graham (38:46)
Tell the team and the people involved what's happening, the role they make in it. Yeah. Don't be afraid to ask questions, know, engage, build a relationship. You get people who kind of very, very wary of kind of, you know, like you said earlier, kind of sort of disappearing when, you know, when people come around or not making eye contact. it can be, and you feel for them people, you know, because it's, you know,

Michael Venner (38:54)
Have you ever had someone really struggle on the assessments on the audits? You notice someone locking up or suddenly getting a fear of God in them or something?

you

Martin Graham (39:16)
naturally going back year when I first started out, wasn't, know, so it wasn't outgoing. And actually all the auditing was, was kind of not frightening, but it was kind of, it did really put me outside of my comfort zone. And it's, so yeah, whenever you're in a situation where there is someone who's nervous or kind of, you know, not responding, you always try and make sure you get that, put them in a relaxed, but yeah, trying to think of, yeah, that's it. Yeah.

Michael Venner (39:19)
So it was more going in and out from all the teaming.

I've told people go and take five minutes if I see them locking up a little bit. Just go and take five minutes, get a coffee or a whatever you want to do and we'll come back to it. And they just seem to be a bit relaxed. But they could say the same thing, can't they? They can quite easily say that.

Martin Graham (39:45)
coffee or whatever you to do. I've never had anyone. Yeah, absolutely. Nothing wrong with that yet. It's just okay. Just gather my thoughts and because when you're, you your head's going and you've to remember as well, these people are in the middle of their day job as well, aren't they? You know, like that for us, for us, it's our day job, but they're doing their things as well. And they might have time set aside for you, but they might. know that's another thing actually I say to people look,

Michael Venner (39:54)
Just give us a couple of minutes.

Martin Graham (40:15)
If you're sitting here and we'll try not to be interuptive because that's obviously not, not good necessarily, but if things happen, you know, that are important for the business, they, they, need to carry on, you know, it's, that's fine. You know, yeah, you do that. Yeah. It's not just kind of like, we've got to spend, you know, all our time with people, but yeah, I've never had any, never had any, nasty, never had any people faint or anything like that. But it's, you do get some, some, some people who are naturally kind of nervous, but again, I guess that shows that they, they care about the process and what's going on. So, yeah.

Michael Venner (40:24)
Okay, I think that's great. I think we're at the end of the time.

Martin Graham (40:48)
All

Okay. No, I don't think so. No, no, no, you're welcome. I hope this has been useful and proven to some degree that we are somewhat human. remains to be seen. But no, it's, yeah, wish everyone well with how they pursue their audits and good luck everyone.

Michael Venner (40:53)
Unless there's anything else to add. Appreciate your time.

Thank you.